Producers in Conversation with Belle Hammond
Full podcast Transcript
Laura Milke Garner 0:00
You're listening to a Milke podcast, we acknowledge the traditional owners of the land of which we operate the Wurundjeri people of the Kulin nation and with respect to where our collaborators, guests and listeners are. We extend our acknowledgement to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander elders past and present.
Patrick Hayes 0:20
Hello there. My name is Patrick Hayes, and this is producers in conversation. This podcast series is all about conversations with producers to share experiences, triumphs and difficulties as we try to find the answer to the elusive question. What exactly is a producer anyway, I have been working within the arts industry, with venues, festivals and independently producing for nearly 10 years now. And I'm still not sure I have an easy answer. Today I am joined by independent producer Belle Hammond, as we look at how to identify our own producing skills and some of the skills that we don't always associate with producing but clearly are, we also look at how important it is to keep up friendships and networks in the industry. And also looking at festivals from both in independent producer artists perspective and from also within the organisation as well. Belle, would you like to introduce yourself in your own words for our listeners before we get started?
Belle Hammond 1:23
So my name is Belle Hammond. I'm an emerging independent producer. I've been working in the arts industry for, I figured it out today, 20 years I've been in the art industry. So I started kind of planning events at uni back in 2002. And most of my career has been kind of within larger arts organisations. So within Adelaide fringe, Edinburgh Fringe, Adelaide Festival centre, those kind of places, but alongside those I've done little bits of kind of what now I realised has been producing all the way along. And then yeah, just more recently, over the lockdown, I've kind of stepped forward and decided that I want to start properly independent producing and kind of take on more of a producer role.
Patrick Hayes 1:23
Yeah, that's really great. I've had a fairly similar kind of like growth of like those experiences of administration and then going through that revelation, I guess, as well, though, definitely not for 20 years. It's quite an amazing amount of time.
Belle Hammond 2:17
I know. It's daunting when you think about it. But yeah, it's the stability of arts organisations is always tempting, I think when you see the length of the contract, and that's always a paycheck coming in. That's what's been so tempting about it,
Patrick Hayes 2:28
Which is I find so funny and like respect to other careers, because what we would say is like a stable contract lasts like one or two years, while I have family members that have been in their insurance company job for 30 plus years was one of those things where they had like sick leave where they could almost take like three years off.
Belle Hammond 2:46
Totally.
Patrick Hayes 2:47
But it's a very weird kind of duality. But well, thank you for joining me today Belle. Like as I'm doing this podcast series around this kind of vague term that is producing and how do we define it? Because I think it's one of those things that a lot of emerging people into the industry go what is a producer? And what do you do? And there's also experienced producer colleagues that I work with who are like, what am I doing? What is this? Is this what a producer does? Am I producing anything right now, one of the gory things I always like to ask is, What is your definition of a producer?
Belle Hammond 3:22
So I guess that's one of the things that has been a thing for me in the past couple of years is I don't think I had necessarily grasp of what kind of independent producers do because I've come from more established organisations, I'm used to working with venue producers, commercial producers, those people that you know, have huge amounts of funds behind them. They're working on commercial properties, that kind of thing. Or I, you know, my friends were artists, and they were self producing. And so kind of, it's only recently, my friend Matt from the Listies who I work with, he was kind of looking over my resume during lockdown being like, should I change career paths? What should I do? And he was like, Well, you're a producer, and I'd never had that applied to me before. But once he kind of broke it down, it did work. So I think my definition of a producer, I guess is someone who problem solves. So it's really about having a broad range of skills, and then just figuring out how to make something happen. So it's about sort of falling in love with an idea or finding someone who's an amazing idea that you're falling in love with, and then working out the steps to make that thing happen. And that can be marketing, that can be logistics that can be administration, budgeting, fundraising grants, there's sort of not a set skill set, I think that is producer. And so that's why I've kind of struggled with the what is a producer?
Patrick Hayes 4:43
And honestly, I guess I said, I think a lot of people have kind of grappled with that conversation because I think you're very correct. It's one of those very fluid things, which I think can also be like as simple or as complex as you want it to be like the main range of skill sets, as you said, problem solving is a major part of producing. And it just depends on I guess what problems, you are solving kind of complexities or difficulties within that area. It's such a, it's such an interesting kind of standpoint where I remember going into uni, and then just like not having any someone who said, like, oh, you should try producing. And then I realised I was basically producing the entire student theatre company I was that I was working for , and I no terms for it,
Belle Hammond 5:27
I find that very much how a lot of my producing work has happened is someone signed me on for something very small there has been grown and grown and grown and add been added to, and then it becomes more of that holistic producer idea.
Patrick Hayes 5:40
Yeah, it's one of those, Laura Milke, who runs the company that is putting on this podcast, a bit of a plug there, Laura, if you're listening, but basically looking at it, we often talk around how there's not necessarily like this arts management, courses, and certificates and stuff like that, but actually producing itself. There's no real stepping stone, like a clear path. And you often just find yourself as like, you've done it once, and then someone offers you to do it again. And then you just keep doing it. And then suddenly, you've been doing it for 20 years. And it's that kind of experience kind of leads perfectly into our next question around we framed it earlier that why did you become a producer?
Belle Hammond 6:23
So like, as I say, I've been doing, looking back, I've been doing producing for many years. So it would be things where I would be brought on as like a Press and Marketing Consultant, or I would be brought on as like a Company Manager, but then it would kind of expand and grow. And so kind of why I became a producer more recently and sort of started calling myself that is, I've just got a real passion for seeing ideas come to life like this, there's something lovely around finding an artist who's got this incredible idea who's who's sort of got this passion for something, but they're struggling with the way to fund it, or they're struggling with the way to articulate it out to people. And you can come in and you can make such a difference. And I think because of my kind of focus and interest area is the really little tiny, weird stuff. That's my favourite kind of producing stuff, that's never going to make any money. But I just kind of love that idea of somebody who's creative, and they've got this incredible idea and sort of making it bigger. And that's not something that I necessarily found in bigger organisations. And it's something that really kind of independent producing is where that stuff leaves.
Patrick Hayes 7:34
Yeah, I think that's a really beautiful kind of exploration of that kind of one's like, especially someone who's come from organisations, which are a bit larger or logistics focus, because like, I've also worked within like fringe components, or Melbourne Fringe, also festivals at Brisbane, powerhouse, all those elements and that kind of producing. Once again, it's more like setting up the venue, it's a lot more gears are turning, making sure everything's in that process, kind of like you don't often get the same chance to, I guess, enjoy those moments of art, which
Belle Hammond 8:05
I guess I'm sorry to cut you off. I don't know about your experience of certainly fringe environment. But I find those more about creating a framework for people to produce themselves. You're not necessarily producing individual shows, you're, like you say creating venues, you're doing resources about marketing, you're you're kind of creating these structures. But it's not there's sort of a disconnect.
Patrick Hayes 8:30
Well, I would say like I've often referred to this within other kinds of assets, because I think that's one of the ways that sometimes getting a bit meta in this as well. But like producers and artists going into Open Access festivals, they kind of expect the festival to be super involved in how many tickets they sell, which I think there is that there are ticket fees coming out of there. There's all those elements. But also the main thing they kind of forget is that it's almost like the whole festival is the festival show. And the artists in the show itself have bought their ticket by paying the registration. And that's their audience experience. So the the festival is more engaged with obviously getting an audience and making sure the audience themselves are having their experience but also more looking at the artists as their audience and going out of artists the best experience possible and make sure they can do their system because I think Melbourne Fringe does it really well has a lot of resources has a lot of those points. And also just off the back of like comedy festival. I think we've got an email every week from artists liaisons and Matt Hirst, if you're out there as well, I think I saw your name in my inbox way too many times.
Belle Hammond 9:33
big shout out to Matt Hirst.
Patrick Hayes 9:33
But all those kinds of elements was really going hey, we're here and able to help, which is a really great kind of aspect within that, but I think just sometimes I've also had those conversations with like, Well, why isn't why aren't the festival helping More? Well, they've also got 700 shows to kind of monitor and stuff. Yes, there's like a different scope.
Belle Hammond 9:53
I definitely had that conversation a lot about because I've done big like fringe and festival marketing campaigns and it's like Look, it's my job to get them from their house to the foyer, your job to get them from the foyer to your show.
Patrick Hayes 10:05
Well, Edinburgh, I could only imagine I haven't been to Edinburgh Fringe myself, but like that is 1000s and 1000s of shows
Belle Hammond 10:12
Soul crashing for so many people. It's yeah, it's a lot I think Edinburgh is, it's one of those places where I've seen some of the most talented and even 'famous' is a bad word but but established people doubt themselves. That's, there's just so much competition, and it's one of those places that you need to have a clear idea of what you want, before you go. And I would recommend that what you want is not making your money back.
Patrick Hayes 10:42
Yeah, I often talk around, especially within like, kind of that emerging point when I'm talking to younger arts workers. And I say younger in the term as in like career younger, not necessarily age younger. But like talking about different forms of currency, Laura talks around "finding your why" basically looking at going What is your purpose? Like sometimes it's our version in Australia, it is Adelaide fringe, which is so massive, most people go there to get like the awards, or the stamps, or the things like that. It's not necessarily I'm going to make bank and leave. As we've all experienced, and especially in the last couple of years, it's often been a rough ride. But it iss that really understanding. Why. Which I think those are really relevant part of producing as well is often I will, I was in that situation of reminding people what the why was, and going, Oh, okay, like we can spend all this money on marketing, or all this stuff to try to get more tickets in. But actually, we were focusing on doing a creative development. And if we do this, what we're probably not going to make the ends meet that we need to to just cover the cost. And then suddenly, we've gone from a cost of zero creative development to a failed money season. It's a really interesting shift of dynamic. And it's hard when you're in the middle of a show run and doing that production or the festival. And it's so easy to get wound up. And as a festival producer, I just always got so sad because like, Melbourne Fringe, I was looking at the artistic development program, so I had helped mentor like 30 to 40 shows. Yeah, but then I could only see like, 12 during the whole festival, and this is really heartbreaking moment. When you have like these artists come up with like, oh, did you see it? Like I did not. But I heard it was great. Or I heard it wasn't great. But it was a fun experiment. Like those kinds of things. Because also, art doesn't always have to be great. Fringe shows can be bad.
Belle Hammond 12:30
Exactly. And I think that is valid. That is a valid and beautiful part of the industry. Yeah, I love terrible shows.
Patrick Hayes 12:39
It's a great thing. Going back to when you were talking or and you've worked in the industry for 20 years, you've been going through you were thinking about a career change. And then this magical oracle of the Listies, goes you are producing what like, what was the moment where you felt like you'd go, you could now go. I am a producer?
Belle Hammond 13:01
Well, I think the Yeah, it's kind of that two phase thing of that that conversation was the first time where I looked at what I'd been doing, and called it producing. And then it all sort of clicked into place. It sort of some of the stuff that he pointed out was I worked with shows in the garden many years ago. And I would be I was brought on as like the flyer, I looked after a team of flyerers, we did the marketing, flyering, online campaigns, that kind of stuff. But then I'll also pick the artists up from the airport. And I also made sure that their accommodation was fine. And when the tap broke, I sort of sorted out the plumber and all that getting contacted this stuff. And it's that kind of thing, where it's like, oh, that's not in the job description of a flyerer. That's, that's a producer, that's, you know, I was working with a larger producer who brought them out from the UK. But, you know, it is that kind of assistant producing role. I think the I'm still a little little bit wobbly on it, just because it is so new to me. Like I say I'm an emerging producer. But I think the thing that's made me feel most like a producer recently has been working with the lefties through COVID. And so we've had to do some pivoting. We've had to cancel performances. And I think that those conversations, when you're talking to a venue, when you're looking at the government regulations, things are changing. You know, there's those moments where you can go ahead, but especially with the Listies because it's a so I should probably get some context. The Listies are a established children's performing company here from Melbourne. It's Matt and Rich. They have a very silly, irreverent kind of beautiful joy to them in their shows. And so we were doing a show in Sydney in January. And that's of course, when a massive COVID spike happened in New South Wales. It was kind of one of the first big spikes in Sydney any The trouble was there were moments where we could have gone ahead, you know, the theatres were allowed to open, but you're asking people to bring their children into what could be a dangerous situation, and so there were a lot of big discussions around that. Around, should we cancel? If we do cancel what happens? And, you know, it got into we had to look at contract law, we had to look into epidemiology. We had to look into it to work with their venue to sort of see, was there anything we could do with the COVID safe plan to make parents feel more comfortable ticket sales, we were looking at ticket sales and how just people weren't responding to marketing, because they were just too worried about going out. And it was kind of that it was sort of dealing with the big thing and kind of taking it in my stride that I was like, Oh, I think, yeah, I'm a producer, I am doing this. And it's working. I mean, it was a horrible situation. But I think it was that kind of tackling something difficult. And then being able to chop into bits and do it. I think that's kind of the first time that I've sort of felt like a producer.
Patrick Hayes 15:49
Yeah, I'm probably going to jump around now. Link into one of the other question, because that links quite well. So just for context, as well, I will just say very clearly, we are recording in July 2022. And I only say that because the world changes every month. And the way that we're talking around context and the landscape and elements right now. It changes, I think we may, me and Laura had this big conversation about whether we talk about the current context or not, we landed on, it's impossible to not because at the moment, the landscape of the arts has really taken a hit in the last few years. And as you just said, there was so much of unpredictability and unknown. And I think at the moment, we're in that kind of, I'm doing air quotes for our listeners, if you cannot hear it in my voice, the post pandemic era, where the government isn't necessarily leading us in what we should be doing in that kind of standpoint. And now it's this really weird...
Belle Hammond 16:54
Its such a strange, murky world.
Patrick Hayes 16:57
It's on the onus of the artist and the producer to kind of what's going on. Sorry, you were saying something?
Belle Hammond 17:03
Yeah, no, I just think you're absolutely correct. It's a very, I think it's gonna take a long time, I don't even know if we will go back to the same operating as we had before the pandemic. And there's so many little tiny things that have changed now that have been changed audiences, one of the things I'm thinking about is refunds. So refunds and exchanges, you used to be able to run it. So I also pay the bills with I'm the ticketing operations manager at the Melbourne International Comedy Festival, as well. So I look after all of their ticketing and box offices. And so kind of drawing from that perspective. refunds and exchanges is something that you could run into a festival and not just Comedy Festival, many festivals said No refunds at all, you know, in certain very specific circumstances, you could get a refund, but it really had to go all the way to the top had to go to the producer, we had to have a discussion about it. And now it's this kind of thing of I call up and I say I'm positive for COVID. And instantly, there's a refund. And that's I think something that's across the entire industry and exchanges as well, you know, going from having a sold out show to suddenly six empty seats, because two groups haven't shown up because somebody has tested positive. And I think that even if we do get to a situation where we do clamp down on those kinds of exchange and refund rules, the perception with the public is already there. And so it will be hard to kind of bring that back but refunding and exchanging often has a massive impact on on artists and really the bottom line and especially when you're talking about fringe artists, independent artists about whether or not we can make rent, it's about whether or not we can pay for the space. And I think that's such a specific area where, where COVID has really changed how that space operates.
Patrick Hayes 18:49
I think that's a really interesting place to be in and kind of like looking at the landscape at the moment because I think you're right, like I think I saw a lot more organisations adapting quicker to audience refunds. And I guess like, how do I say this in a political way? Audience financial risk, where you had elements of going, like, especially for the big concerts, I saw that happening quite quickly where it was like, I'm buying my tickets to insert Popstar name here. I acknowledged those are like $300 tickets or something around those lines, and then you go on paying that extra $20 for ticket insurance in case the artist gets sick or whatever. There's things out of my control. And that was like something that happened fairly quickly. Like there was a lot of confusion around it. And then there was like, Yep, cool. That's how we will encourage people to buy tickets. But there was still that like question around like as we talked about open access festivals like registrations and all these points. I know a lot of open access festivals and we're very quick to especially in the harsh deposit lockdown to give those regos back and all those points. beats. But yeah, I think there's a lot of as someone who's also looking at touring at the moment, there is a lot of confusion around what happens in a covid environment, which I do find very funny in a weird context, because like, people have been getting sick for a long time, like not just in the last few years, admittedly, a lot of people got sick in the last few years. But it's this weird kind of point of I'm, well, any artists could have just gotten sick or broken their leg or whatever, and not being able to perform.
Belle Hammond 20:33
Well, it's already out there in public. I'm not spilling the beans here, but Dilruk had a heart attack partway through the festival. You know, this is something that is absolutely not COVID related. And it was could have happened any year. And it caused a huge amount of disruption for the festival. I think you're right, like individual people getting sick or individual, you know, cars breaking down, it's not new. But there has been a huge shift in the way that people exactly like you say whether they trust buying a ticket to start with, people are a little bit more hesitant, especially in those higher end those big concert tickets, those big things like that to buy it unless they know they're gonna get a refund. We had so many more inquiries, and this is not Comedy Festival. This is across all the shows that I work on, people ask a lot, you know, if I buy Can I get a refund? And yeah, it's kind of it's really shifted. How people look at tickets and that transaction,
Patrick Hayes 21:25
I'm afraid, Belle and I will not solve the arts in our 30 to 40 minute chat today. But I guess like what when I was at Midsumma as the Program Manager, I used to talk about it being the weather, like the unpredictable, predictable, like, we could know that we know that something's going to happen. But we don't know what it is where it is how it is. All those elements, because it was kind of this juggling of going is there a lockdown? Is there restrictions? Is there everything? Is there? COVID? Is someone going to go down, which at the moment, I think people actually getting COVID is the major point, every organisation or person I talked to someone sick, half the team are down, everything's going down, which is why we also recording this digitally just for anyone concern for both Belle or I's safety. But yeah, how do you deal with like this kind of unpredictable nature of the landscape right now?
Belle Hammond 22:20
It really is a bit terrifying. There's no other way. And I've done so much research into insurances. And you know, there's just nothing out there. Because, as you say, it is almost a certainty at the moment that something's gonna happen. And so nobody really wants to insure against it, because they know, it's gonna pay off. Like, they're gonna have to pay something out. And so, especially taking on events where you shoulder all the risk, it's just not as appealing. And so part of the things with the acts that I work with, part of what we're hoping to do is share risk with people is fine, who else we can share risk with, you know, can we go in with the venue of somebody who's funded who can share that risk with us, rather than it being an entire tour? Resting on, what did we call it the other day one, one stripe to stripe roulette. Like, it's like, and because, you know, especially with the list is there's only two of them. And it's not a role. It's a person, you can't substitute Matt or Rich out you there's no understudy for that role is if one of them has positive, we have to cancel that show.
Patrick Hayes 23:30
Which is like a really interesting thing. I was talking to a friend the other day, and I went to see one of the major musicals happening in Melbourne right now. And we've had nine understudies happening in that show. And I was like, I was like, imagine like, it's great to have nine understudies. Like, perfect, Its great that actors are getting paid. But working in that kind of independent festival space, you've only got sometimes you barely have a performer like just one. And if they go down what
Belle Hammond 24:00
and it's not just one performance, either. It's you know, five performances, seven performances. It's it's a lot. And it's you know, it's everybody out there who's kind of trying to put on their own stuff at the moment is encountering this and just trying to look for ways because if you could insure it, it'd be great and there is that event insurance but it's for you know, if there's a lockdown called it's not necessarily for if an actor tests positive, you don't get paid out in that situation. And so, like, where do you go?
Patrick Hayes 24:27
Yes, I was aghast when I saw that and called them up and asked him around that insurance because it looks like it should have been amazing. And then you asked and it's like, oh, no, it's only for a lockdown. I'm like cool, but you're also telling me that there will never be a lockdown again so....
Belle Hammond 24:43
what is the point in this scenario?
Patrick Hayes 24:44
What's happening insurance? Yes, it was a very interesting point. And I think that's a real kind of testament of like, looking at that like I guess as producers we tried to like plan get through as we talked about, like that kind of we problem solve that Yeah. Without I guess working with Then like contacting, you're talking about share risks. I know you're working across like a vast range of projects, but how do you look at like funding in those projects now you cannot like I know that Listies probably working on fair amount of there are buy-ins.
Belle Hammond 25:15
Listies are more established. So they have, they kind of work across two different producers. So I'm kind of their little in house producer, and I do a lot of administration work for them. They also have critical stages who are there touring, big touring one, if they go to the opera house, they go with critical stages, not with me. But I do also work with sort of Teilia Nevile, I'm working on Memoirs of a tired carer coming up at Melbourne Fringe, which you should all go to it's Green Room Award Nominated, I think, when I look at funding and sort of taking veering away from COVID, I think I'm still at the point where I'm really very reliant on government funding, you know, whether it's Victorian government funding local councils, I just, it's so vital to, as I say, sharing that risk, you know, if you can't, if you especially if you're in a fringe sense, where you are self producing within a festival, the festival can't share that risk with you, they can't take it on, you know, they can help subsidise things and make venues cheaper and sort of bring in marketing campaigns and things like that, but your show has to stand on its own two feet. And, you know, especially with the stuff that I love, not wanting not gonna make a huge amount of money, just because it's small audiences, you know, sometimes difficult subject matter, things like that. Having those grants just reduces that risk, you're like, Look, I know, this show is going to pay the bills. And then now we're just going to work on whether it makes money, whether we can get some money to put into a future project, and it just takes that makes you relax that little bit. You know, especially in the COVID world, it helps you with that, but but just generally, even if it's a small grant, if it covers those big hard costs, or part of those big hard costs, it just makes it less of a barrier to putting it on.
Patrick Hayes 26:59
Yeah, so like, when you talk about grants, you're looking more like, have you been doing like federal and state kind of grant funding? Or have you done any, like local councils?
Belle Hammond 27:08
Yeah, a lot of the projects that I work on, don't quite qualify for the big federal ones. And they are so competitive. I've put in a put in a whole bunch of applications for federal funding. But you know, they're on about large installation works. They're on about theatre companies that produce multiple things on main stages, you know, something like Oliver's show Memoirs of a Tired Carer , it's not really going to stand up on federal funding. But certainly Victoria has incredible arts funding coming from South Australia, I can't believe how many programs there are. And even if it's not dollar funding, things like the Victorian, independent, VIPI and Victorian independent producing initiative,
Patrick Hayes 27:47
VIPI, short term for anyone playing at home but Yeah.
Belle Hammond 27:52
It's fantastic. You know, it's got a whole bunch of resources, and also helps connect you with people that networking because sometimes you're looking at a bill, we did this the other day, when we were talking about postage, you know, you're looking at a bill of $1,500. But then you have a conversation and you can bring that down to 500. And so, you know, Victoria has just an incredible amount of funding, and then also resources and then connections that has been incredible. And then also down to local governments, like you say like Moreland Council is incredible. I mean, the west now Maribyrnong, I'm starting to look at their stuff. There's a lot of funding coming into the West. Yeah, it's it. There's a lot of different places that you can go. And especially if you're just starting out, and you're not really asking for a lot of money, you know, people can take a chance on you and kind of just give you that little bit to reduce the risk.
Patrick Hayes 28:42
Yeah, I think it's definitely like worth kind of mentioning and I don't know where our listeners are if they are in different places. Maribyrnong and Moreland are some of our local councils though. Technically Moreland is going to be renamed. Soon, but that's a whole other podcast agenda. But I think looking at local councils is a really great way of kind of connecting especially because a lot of them if you are living or performing in those councils, there are a lot of points there. Like I'm from Brisbane, which only really has one local council. That really does a lot of it. But yeah, it's a very different landscape in Melbourne, where there's suddenly so many local councils that exist. Also with festivals, I think it's also important to kind of look at trends on those open access festivals that get the day get the federal funding that then they disseminate down through those kinds of even if it's just like to cover registration or those costs or those things but yeah, it's definitely a challenge.
Belle Hammond 29:36
Yeah, it's such it's one of those things that learning to write a really good grant application just makes a huge difference. Because I've I've done my masters in arts management couple of years back and they always talked about you know, you should have three pillars on your show you should have one pillar which is your ticket sales, which should be a third you should have one pillar which is kind of funding and grants and things like that. And then the third pillar should be sponsorships and I always like who do you think I am ?,Who do you think the shows I producer are? we're not gonna get a massive sponsor. But you know, you look at you know, it doesn't necessarily have to be like a name brand sponsor, maybe it's, you know, if you're doing something, you know, I'm sort of going into film world now where it's like, if you need catering, why don't you talk to your local restaurant? You know, like, there are smaller things that you can do to kind of do that funding as well.
Patrick Hayes 29:36
Yeah, I think there's also like, I guess my sponsorship that I've always experienced as a producer, and like live performance has mainly been like, in inkind. Yeah. Which is another, I guess, like another form of it for us that because it's not always like brand, necessarily, as in the show brought to you by blah, blah, blah. But yeah, it's a really interesting kind of look at it, I reckon. And it's like, as you said, there's normally that kind of standard of going 40%, boxoffice blah, blah, blah. But it's really interesting now with a with an audience, we were already having trouble convincing them to buy early. Yes, audiences never buy early. But now it seems almost impossible to not get people buying the day before the performance, which means it makes it so hard to predict that kind of budgeting. Wave fluctuation? It's, yeah,
Belle Hammond 31:11
It's certainly different.
Patrick Hayes 31:15
So I guess like one of the one of the questions that we'll get into producing and defining what a producer is, looking at this points, core skills, we've kind of talked about that. So it won't make your re-hash that I guess, went off script a bit. Honestly, I think it's fine and better that way. Because it would, I think would feel very weirdly formulaic. If it was like this person answer this question like this,
Belle Hammond 31:37
like a job interview,
Patrick Hayes 31:39
it's always gonna be that. In this conversation we've been looking at defining a producer looking at it is kind of core skills, all those little struggles that we kind of have at the moment, what is the one thing you struggled with the most looking at it being a producer? And how do you manage those skills?
Belle Hammond 31:58
I think one of the things I struggle with where I'm at in my career is billing and invoicing people and figuring out how much to charge people I think, because I'm where the people that I like to work with, and kind of the work that I'm interested in is the people that are stepping from the not necessarily the listings, but I'm sort of more talking about Oliver Bailey, and it's the kind of other other areas there is, they're stepping from self producing, into kind of, kind of make her a thing and be more established. And so, you know, the, the budgets are so tight on those performances. And, you know, sometimes you're working with an artist that is, you know, worried about rent or something like that, and you're like, oh, how do I charge them money. And so that has kind of been something that I've had to get better at, and kind of have a few questions with myself about value and the value of what I do, and then kind of come up with different models based on the person's situation, you know, I don't necessarily have a one size fits all way to make my money through producing, you know, it might be a project that is not going to make any money, and the artist is probably going to put some of their own cash into it. And I would feel bad taking money off an independent artist. And so maybe I'll do it for a fixed fee. Or I might, instead of doing the producing for them, be more of a consultant and be like, Look, it would be this much if I produced it, or like this percentage if I produced it, but why don't we, Why don't we do this? It might be you give me free tickets to the show. You know, you help me like you're good at sound, can you help me audio, this other thing, and in return, I'll meet up with you once a week. And we'll go over and you can self produce it. And I'll just help guide you through that. And so I think that's kind of been my biggest struggle at this point is how do you charge someone who doesn't have any money, money, but I also have rent. So you've kind of got to make that balance.
Patrick Hayes 33:46
It is one of the oldest questions of time, I think, especially in the art sector, and especially right now, as we've kind of already discussed, like, it's such a difficult time to predict and kind of have those points where Yeah, I honestly think for that emerging arts world and that open access festival, we're gonna see a lot more self producing artists, mainly out of necessity, just because producing as another cost as much as it's a useful which I guess we're gonna get into those questions soon. But yeah, it's another cost. And it's another mouth to feed out of that chunk of box office, which is sometimes really hard to justify that as a side rant, which I probably could go on for the whole time that we have. But I also think Australian arts, I shouldn't even just say, Australia, I think there is a larger taboo around talking around money, and also the transparency of money as like a Program Manager, I had a lot of difficulty trying to even negotiate some times where I was like, what, how much does this cost and like, oh, how much have you got? I'm like, well,
Belle Hammond 34:48
Nothing.
Patrick Hayes 34:49
I'll pay you what you need. Just like it was a really interesting kind of like, it's that dance of cards, which I was really bad at myself and I don't really know how to get better at it. But yeah, I think that is it is just a difficult thing. Because once again, it's one of those skills that no one really teaches us. It's just like, suddenly you're thrust in a room and an artist or a venue or festivals like okay, well give me a figure.
Belle Hammond 35:11
It's even, it's that thing of you can't necessarily Google, what percentage should a producer take? Like, it's not something you can google and find out like you. Weird side note, you, I found out that it costs 100 US dollars to fly a falcon on Qatar Airways, you can find that out. That is some random bit of the corner of the internet that I found the other day, where it's like, you can find that information out but you can't google what is the standard percentage rate for an independent producer? Why is that information and it's so vital, especially like I, I really have a lot of heart and passion for independent artists and you know, especially early career people that are, you know, working in a part time casual, terrible job so that they can make money to put on the thing that is their passion. And so if I'm talking to somebody about taking some of that hardware money, or even the ticket sales, you know, they've put their heart and soul into this show. And I'm, I'm talking to them about taking a percentage of tickets out, I want to know that I'm not overcharging, I'm wanting to know that this is the best deal that they can get as well, that because if they could get a better deal elsewhere, almost part of me wants them to go elsewhere. And so not having that information is not only a disservice to me, because I can under charge, but the disservice are artists in case I am overcharging.
Patrick Hayes 36:31
Yeah. And I think that's a real like we talked about this a little bit now, like pre conversation before the podcast as well is just there's not many chances for producers to just have heart to heart and kind of open conversations around these skills and charges and all of those elements, because it's almost impossible. It's also like it's impossible for us to have that standardised percentage, because also, it's kind of scalable. And if we're working for a more well paid company, then of course, you want to get paid more, because normally when paid enough, like it's all those real kind of dance of heartfelt Yeah, it's a real tight rope. And once again, me and Belle are not going to solve all of this. I'm sorry, listening going. Oh, thank God, they've told me, you know, the answer to everything Hitchhiker's Guide reference there, but its more going. Yeah, I think it's also, it's important to know that other producers are struggling with that kind of element and going, how much do we charge? Or because I think I've also seen that within larger collaborative cohorts for like fringe, like you might have like seven people doing a show together. And normally, they're all performing. Everyone's like, cool, but we've all done the same will split the profit seven ways. But then there's also that thing of going okay, but six of you're performing on stage and rehearsing, but then you have one producer, or one organiser, and it's like, are they? Are they the same? Are they doing the same work? Like, it's, it's that kind of weird shift of viewing even LPA has more guidance around performers, and all those samples when you're getting into those higher higher games. Or it's like, yeah, we're all LPA producer kind of falls in this weird in between.
Belle Hammond 38:14
And it's also that what does it cover? You know, even if we did have a standard of then what does that cover? Like? I'm doing marketing and publicity. But does that mean I'm writing a press release? Or is that additional above what a producer does? Yeah, it's that I think you're you're on the money as well around spaces for producers to talk to each other, because it's so important. And I think some of the space, there are spaces that exist, you know, obviously, we've got, we've had the art industry for a long time. But I've tend to find those spaces are so focused on the show that you're producing, it's about how to find funding for the show. It's about how to kind of develop relationships with venues say, and it's not necessarily producers talking to each other about their work. And in it's that kind of producer a little bit neglected in that way of there's always that focus on the show and getting the show up and looking after the actors and less of a focus in those spaces of well, how much do you charge for this? And what do you do when you're burnt out? And the artist is crying? And you know, there's all that kind of what do you do, like setting boundaries on artists and those kinds of conversations that are so good to have with other people that experience it? But not necessarily. Those topics don't necessarily come up in those producing networking spaces.
Patrick Hayes 39:29
Yeah, well, hopefully, maybe in the future, we'll have some of those kinds of spaces more.
Belle Hammond 39:35
And this podcast is a great start, you know, like it's a we need more things like this. Yeah.
Patrick Hayes 39:40
I didn't want to say it. But
Belle Hammond 39:42
no, I'm more than happy to I'm, I think this is a great project,
Patrick Hayes 39:46
I guess like linking into the kind of that next point. So this is this is the spice. One of the spicy questions. I really want to say how people actually answered this one. But why do you think producers are important to the art sector?
Belle Hammond 39:58
Ah, I, honestly, and I don't want this to kind of reflect on the people that I currently work with, because they're all very well put together, this is more me thinking historically, artists can be truly terrible at administration, and communicating their work out to the world, I was thinking about it. Behind the scenes here, you sent me the questions earlier, just to like, have a bit of a think about it. And I was thinking about this one earlier and I was like, producers really are like science communicators, you know, there are people employed in the world to take really dense scientific papers and discoveries and make them accessible to people. And so, you know, part of what is so vital about producers in an industry is you can have an artist that has an incredible idea, and it's going to change things, or it's saying something, maybe they're telling a personal story. And you see that, especially in things like indigenous works, like there's so many incredible things out there that then run up against some sort of bureaucracy, and suddenly it gets stopped. And the artist doesn't necessarily know how to navigate that space. And or maybe they're really great at communicating visually, but not necessarily in words. And really funding applications is one of the clear ones whose because government forms and bureaucracy like that has to have such a rigid and specific structure that it can be so hard to navigate, especially if you're starting out, especially if you're not familiar with that space, that having somebody that comes in that knows it, you know, I've I've, my parents worked for the public service, I've worked public service jobs, I just know the way that things need to be answered. And the the way that these things are then looked at, and it's the producer, just having that very specific set of skills takes it off of the artists to create, you're not forcing somebody where it's, you know, their skill is producing art, their skill is not necessarily budgets, so taking that off, and allowing them to create what they need to create, while you kind of take care of that stuff that would otherwise stop them. I think he's so vital, and really kind of underappreciated, I think, in a lot of ways.
Patrick Hayes 42:08
Look, I think you hit the nail on the head really on like one of the things that I personally believe it's more like it's definitely around. Communication is the main thing I've always said to me as a producer like we are communicators, I think there is that kind of trope of like, artists don't want to be organised all those kinds of elements, which I, you know, I've met enough artists that break that trope, as they do do make that trope like always, I'm always like, Oh, wow, maybe, you know, artists do love me. And then I'll work with the next artist. And I'm like, oh, no, they hate calendars. They start having like headaches, when looking at a spreadsheet, all those elements. And I think if that's you, it's fine. And that's some people strengths are not those things. And I think that's why producers exist. And to be honest, I've met some producers, where I don't know if that's their strength, either. It's these real kind of elements of just going, how do we communicate, I think one of my biggest one was like connecting like tech with creative as well like kind of the more very logistics, focused elements. And then the creative language I used to always laugh, the biggest example I had of this as like a side tangent was, there was like a lot like a lighting cue setup. And it was a really great example of like, the different forms of language that each of the groups had, because it was like the director was going through this whole like, I need this scene to have, it needs to convey the emotion of this woman who's just like lost her child. And this kind of agonising grief and language heartfelt connection, and then I just heard this, like stage manager go increased blue intensity by five. And it was just like this really great duality of yeah, that, to me is what a producer is kind of like in that in between this of going, we need to take this kind of elements and go and allow space for both aspects. I think also that communication allows the techs to do their job, it allows the artist to do their job. Yeah, it's a real kind of point where I think but yeah, I agree. Like, it's interesting that you told science communication because I love all of that stuff. Like it's my favourite one of my favourite kind of deep dives, a lot of the podcasts I listened to are all that kind of format where they're taking all that raw data and then trying to like make it in a very interesting and accessible way of doing that, which I think it's one of the best ways of podcasting personally. Yeah, I think that's a great kind of encapsulations getting more from the meta into the micro. I guess, like kind of looking saying to wrap up in our kind of sense, but what is a moment that you're most proud of as a producer?
Belle Hammond 44:44
I think one of the things, one of the things that I've been most proud of recently is the FriYay podcast. Sorry, Friday. What would you call a podcast that's on Zoom?
Patrick Hayes 44:55
Oh, a videocast maybe
Belle Hammond 44:57
videocast.
Patrick Hayes 44:58
I mean, live stream Live Stream. We are very good at live streaming we are.
Belle Hammond 45:04
we are, oh my God words. One of the things I'm most proud of, I think is the FriYay live streams that we did with the lefties. So that was kind of during the 2021 Lockdown, we would every Friday, it was it was kind of a short show it was a half an hour, 40 minutes. Sometimes if they were on a roll, it went to 50. And it kind of had this thing where we would get kids to send in their pictures of their pets. And we would have pet of the week oh, sorry, VIP, very important pets. And then every week there was a theme. So we would get kids to draw on draw a picture on that theme and send it in and the guys would look at them and riff off of what was there and add stuff. And then there was kind of like a little sketch in the middle. So Richard science corner or something like that. And you know, it's so hard. I know, there's a lot of people out there that did pivoting during lock downs, to kind of digital format, it can be so quiet, and you have no idea how it's going. And you can sort of look at the viewer count, but you're like, are they watching? Or did they click on it by accident kind of thing. But what's happened now that lockdown is over and we're out is so many parents are coming up to Matt and Rich and saying thank you so much for getting us through lockdown. We loved it. The kids had something to do in the week. And then it has something to look forward to. And then they knew it was Friday, because FriYay was on and just getting that feedback that people were watching and you made a difference. I'm so proud of the guys for creating something so beautiful and sort of proud of myself because I had to learn a whole bunch of new skills to help them do it. And there was a lot of sifting through cat pictures and figuring out have I seen this cat before. But it was a really beautiful thing that we created. And what I also love is apparently there are a few arts organisations where they would check it on, everybody would sort of have it on their computers and they'd be chatting and just sort of having a fun or fun kind of time with that as well. There was quite a lot of adults in the chat as well, which was a lot of fun.
Patrick Hayes 46:57
Cute. I think that's great. And you did the Lord's work in providing everyone a little bit of a break from probably Frozen or Bluey being played the 80th time that day, which no shame. I love both Frozen and Bluey. That's a great answer. Like I know, watching it through it was a very hard thing to pivot, which I think will always like cause a PTSD. To me, that word like it just like, Oh, my heart. But yeah, watching people trying to pivot and some people did it better than others. And some people's art lends itself to that more than others. But I think you're right, it was a very thankless act for a lot of people because it was just like, it's hard to kind of see that recognition. And you're so live performers are so used to the instant feedback. And nothing in that point, unless you had one of those weird shows where the camera was on the audience, which as an audience member gave me heart.
Belle Hammond 47:56
It was like the worst of audience participation.
Patrick Hayes 47:59
It's almost a zero or 100. Like either like, I'm just watching something and its fine or yeah, I'm suddenly performing. And I think I've definitely had a few times where I did not know the camera was going to be on and I was maybe not exactly dressed for the theatre. Yes. Shocked and horror. Oh, God. And sometimes the performance are great. Sometimes they weren't. And then sometimes, you know, you just have to really be like, Oh, yep.
Belle Hammond 48:24
Well, that's the other thing. If it's terrible, and your video is on, they can see that you hate it, that you're texting, which
Patrick Hayes 48:30
is like, you know, sometimes it's a blessing to not see your audience. But yeah, yeah, I think that's a that's a that's a beautiful thing. I can only imagine having people coming up and saying
Belle Hammond 48:38
it was it's been really beautiful. And I have a huge I'd like to just add in if I can, I have huge respect for the people that chose not to pivot because they knew it wouldn't be the best for their art, I think there was a lot of pressure, especially at the very beginning of 2020, sort of when we first everything went into lockdown, and people had to change it, they were worried about the income. There are a lot of people that felt kind of pressured to manipulate what they do onto a screen and you're right, some people it works. Some people they have something that can translate across. It's a very specific skill set presenting to camera and I think the people that looked at it and realise that that wasn't for them. And I think they've had a really rough couple of years. I have mad respect for the people that looked at it and went you know what, actually this isn't for me, I'm gonna sit this one out and had to go away and just kind of work on this stuff on their own without an audience because that must have been so hard.
Patrick Hayes 49:33
Yeah, I think the last two years I think just the Clean Slate now once you feel guilty or shame of whatever way you interacted or tackled the lockdown pandemic, those of us that put on lockdown weight those of us that did the lockdown body transformations those that put on a show those that didn't put on show what ever we did it just it just especially in Victoria as Victoria focusing more we spent over so many days locked in our houses, I think yeah, it's one of those real The interesting elements, I think a lot of people who did try to pivot as well learnt a lot about their art. And they learned about the difference between live streaming and live performance. And some of them, I saw some people swim. And some people drown basically that kind of sink or swim element, and they go caught actually a live performer, I will never change. Great. Thank you for that experience. And now some people I see they really have gone into that digital space, and they're really working it and yeah, I mean, that's also great. People have been doing that for a long time. And you know, say what you want about Twitch streamers, YouTube Artists, all those points where I think there was sometimes like, dirty word in like performance, like, oh, the, the Twitch elements, but you know, they really paved the way for a lot of that kind of entertainment. And they were thriving. I was, as a gamer, myself, I was watching Twitch gamers and stuff. And I'm like, Oh, you guys, you're fine. This is just another day in your life. And you're just keep on going. But I guess on the flip side, as we get into like the last question before we close off, basically, we definitely are you most proud of stove, what would you say is one of the mistakes or biggest mistakes that you've made as a producer and feel free to not to be too incriminating with this?
Belle Hammond 51:11
No, no, I'm perfect. I'm fine. I never make mistakes. You know, I think you make I struggled a lot with perfectionism. So I think you just have to accept that you're gonna make mistakes, little law large, you know, I've made mistakes, like Did you know, when you pull addresses down to do mailing labels for your merchandise, it can change the street address. So like 91, 92 Smith Street, 93. Smith Street did that one once. But I think kind of the biggest, one of the biggest mistakes I think I've made in my career is not putting effort into some of the contacts that I made early. So I you know, you make contacts and networks all the way through your career. And I think when I was younger, I kind of didn't see the value sometimes, especially in keeping friendships at a long distance. So I made a lot of contacts when I was in Edinburgh living in London as well. And then, you know, you get home back to Australia, and you're like, Oh, the time difference is hard, what are we going to do? And and I think one of the biggest mistakes is that I didn't maintain and put time into those relationships, because, you know, it's like this, I'm still friends with all of those people. Like, I don't think there's anyone that would refuse to catch up with me for a pint. But I see some of the projects that people were working on, that I was working on with back then are taking on now, you know, massive interactive events in like Shanghai and Hong Kong or events on the West End. And just like, Oh, why am I not working on those productions? And it's, it's the little things like it wouldn't take a lot to maintain some of those. And so I kind of, maybe it's an odd mistake, maybe it's more of a regret, I wish I'd spent more time cultivating those friendships and kind of cultivating that network, just because it does take time, like it is a real thing that you have to do.
Patrick Hayes 52:57
I guess that kind of leads into the last line closing one, if you could go back and give yourself one piece of advice to like a younger producer version of yourself, what would it be? Would it would it be around that kind of network?
Belle Hammond 53:09
Definitely a big piece of advice is to kind of maintain like put work into maintaining friendships like Don't sorry, networks, and friendships kind of they do crossover in that industry is to recognise that it is work. But I think if I could give myself one piece of advice to my younger self, or to kind of early career artists, like you said, it's not necessarily young people, but people that are starting out is to do start to just kind of go and do it. I think I was put off a lot early in my career by how big and daunting things seemed. But now that I've got more experience, and I've done more things, you know, do it shedule break it into tiny chunks. And actually, once you start doing something, it tends to become much more achievable. It's kind of getting started and not being overwhelmed by how big the thing you want to do is I yeah, there's so many projects where I was like, it should have just done it. It wouldn't have been that big. It seemed so big at the time. But really, if if you just get started, if you get rolling, if you start talking to people, if you start making it a thing, people will come on board, you'll find funding, you'll find solutions, and if it doesn't work out, it doesn't work out but get started and and just do stuff make stuff.
Patrick Hayes 54:20
Yeah, I think that's a great, very good piece of advice. I think there was so many opportunities that I talked myself out of before I even started anything. And one of my main example of that is like just job applications or like grant applications or things like that, where I've got I'm just not suitable for that. And I find that really interesting because I think I don't even know I had like a turning point where someone was like, actually, that's up to the panel to tell you know, you don't have to tell yourself no before they do like that's up to someone else to say this can't work or things like that, which doesn't always work in that kind of like opportunities but I think that really helps which mine mind going, oh, you know, I should just apply like what can useful from that experience or all those points, which I think even sometimes, that's a really interesting way of looking at projects. Sometimes they don't end they sometimes they end badly sometimes they go through that point. But often I don't think I've had a project or job or any of that stuff that I haven't learned something from, in some way, shape or form.
Belle Hammond 55:23
Yet, I guess an example that I think back on is my birthday used to fall in the middle of Melbourne, Adelaide fringe. And it still does, I guess. And I always wanted to do like a variety show lineup for my birthday, not necessarily been branded as my birthday, but kind of do a variety show lineup, because I used to meet all of these incredible people during the festival, my birthday landed towards the second half. So collect a whole bunch of random people doing interesting things, and then put on a little variety night kind of partway through the festival to push tickets out and second part and kind of show people's incredible stuff that I'd found. And I convinced myself that putting on a show would be so hard. But then thinking back on it and looking at it now like had I just approached the venue and said, Hey, I'm thinking about this thing. People love content, they love filling little spaces in their gaps. And they probably had knowledge that I missed as far as how to do the technical stuff, you know, they could have connected me with other people that would have made that come true. But I in getting daunted by it thought I had to do all that stuff myself. Whereas if I'd got started and talk to some people, a whole bunch of stuff that I couldn't do myself, and we'd be daunting, probably would have been taken care of quite easily.
Patrick Hayes 56:33
Yeah, I think I think also exept taking away from your statement is like that little like breaking things down into small, achievable chunks is also a great way for that kind of those mammoth tasks that we've received and going I actually show running a whole show is this massive thing. But today, I have to send an email, like that's kind of like those stepping stones, which I think is really great. Well, that kind of brings us to the end of our little chat.
Belle Hammond 56:59
So yeah, thank you. It's been wonderful. I've been useful.
Patrick Hayes 57:03
It's been wonderful, you've been great. It's going to be hopefully a great little series that we have on this kind of podcasting, around producing. And basically, if anyone wants to follow Belle or contact Belle, we'll probably just get some links from you and just add it into like the little show notes.
Belle Hammond 57:20
Yeah, that'd be great.
Patrick Hayes 57:20
But thank you so much for coming. And....
Belle Hammond 57:23
No worries. It's been lovely to chat to you. And like I say, hopefully I've said some things that are useful to people. And if you're self producing artists out there, or a producer that struggling you're doing great for the arts landscape is so hard. And I think everyone needs to give themselves kind of a bit of a pause because I think we're all doing a wonderful job here.
Patrick Hayes 57:40
That's a great note to end on. So I'll say goodbye to our listeners. And I'll hopefully be talking to your ears next time.
Laura Milke Garner 57:48
Hey, thanks for listening to the podcast. Milke is your go to for getting your show to the stage. We run industry leading courses, workshops for independent artists and producers covering everything you want to know about producing his show. Want to find out more head to our website Milke.com.au That's Milke.com.au
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
