Producers in Conversation with Lyall Brooks
Full podcast Transcript
Laura Milke Garner 0:00
You're listening to a MILKE podcast, we acknowledge the traditional owners of the land of which we operate the Wurundjeri people of the Kulin nation. And with respect to where our collaborators guests and listeners are. We extend our acknowledgement to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander elders past and present.
Patrick Hayes 0:20
Hello there. My name is Patrick Hayes and this is producers in conversation. This podcast series is all about conversations with producers to share experiences, triumphs and difficulties as we try to find the answer to the elusive question. What exactly is a producer anyway? I have been working within the arts industry, with venues festivals and independently producing for nearly 10 years now. And I'm still not sure I have an easy answer. This episode, I am joined by Lyall Brooks, the founding artistic director of lab Kelpie. Today we're going to be talking around all things art sector, but looking in on impostor syndrome, touring, producing, and also, though there are setbacks that kind of fall apart in many different projects. How do we take advantage of those falls/setbacks to create something new. Lyall would you like to introduce yourself to our listeners before we begin?
Lyall Brooks 1:22
I'm Lyall Brooks, I use he/him pronouns. I am, I guess, more known for producing under the Lab Kelpie umbrella. So about 10 years ago, my partner and I started Lab Kelpie Theatre Company, which has gone through a few different iterations and is now a company focused on new Australian text based works. Previous to that I've sort of had over 20 years of experience working as a performing artist as a theatre director, as a teaching artist, so you're most of my producing has been sort of in a very small independent institution, I guess. But I do do other things as well, that are sort of, you know, outside of that. But also, I say in other independent producing, but I guess I always do rely on those skills that I've learned and the networks and, and things that have come from sort of building up a company of my own. I also, yeah, I'm very interested in bringing arts and education together. So in particular theatre and education, so sort of linking up students, whether they be drama students, or whatever, sort of linking the curriculum or just linking the interests with what's going on in the professional industry. And making sort of makes sense, because I know sometimes there's a big disconnect between what students learn and what they get faced with when they go out into the world or into the industry. So it's always nice to sort of have each other make sense of what the other party is doing. And also just outside of education itself, but certainly in the US sphere, I'm definitely interested in just sort of helping young people find their voice, I guess. It doesn't always have to be product oriented, but it's all about the process. And and by youth, I also mean, you know, people up to say, 21 - 22, I feel like there's also a gap after high school where young people are meant to have got things together and no longer need the supporter.
Patrick Hayes 3:05
I also like I use this home young a lot in early career kind of interchangeable sometimes where I also like have to add a caveat going, I mean, young producer, but that could just mean someone who's just starting as a producer, or those kinds of elements. Yeah, and I mean, like a lot of those kind of elements are within what this aim of this podcast is. It's kind of a place where we can kind of share experiences, especially as producers, I feel like we don't often communicate with other producers very well, like other than business. So like, obviously, we're talking a lot through like contracts and emails, and probably cursing each other's names as delays and emails, or all those kinds of points. But there's not many spaces or chances for us to kind of go Yeah, like, I've experienced that, too. This is how I've kind of deal with this, or, Hey, has anyone else struggled with this at the moment, those kinds of systems, which I think is one of the kind of thought experiments behind this podcast. We also like kind of go through on the end, the ambiguity of what a producer is, I think it's one of those things that I often joke about trying to explain to my family what I do, but also on the other hand, I feel like I'm also sometimes having to explain to veteran arts workers what I do gets kind of this very interchangeable role. So this is kind of why I've my first question, I guess is how do you define a producer?
Lyall Brooks 4:30
I find that has to be the scariest question of all. It is so ambiguous it depends on on so many things. It's so particular isn't it? Yeah, trying to describe what a producer is to people who don't know is almost impossible you almost have to show them lots of different examples of what your you know, your end product is and hope they get a an understanding of that that's kind of those one of those if you know you know things. I guess a producer for me and it's tough to because I you know, I consider myself a creative producer. You know, with some sort of artistic input into what I work on and jobs that I've taken where I haven't been accredited producer, that's when I feel the real difference there. And, and to be honest, I don't like it I love being just a straight up producer, I guess it is closing the night you are creating something, you can't do it in a vacuum, you can't do it alone, you are a Wrangler, of people have budgets of of schedules or venues of other stakeholders, you are always just working on on a very, very narrow end result, which is to get this in my case, you know it show in a theatre overseas and or might be a tour. But this You're like the funnel, in a creative process, you are helping guide all these disparate elements, then they can be you know, wonderful and colourful and creative, or they can be dry and Excel spreadsheets, and you're sort of funnelling everything to this one final point, which is an audience sitting there watching your show. Yeah, I guess that's that wasn't very short or concise, but it feels like that's the shortest version
Patrick Hayes 6:05
Like if it was shortened because I precise, we probably wouldn't have this podcast, I'll be having this conversation. I think it's one of those things. Where producing does and as you kind of alluded to, there's multiple facets of different styles of producing in its own right, like there are different jobs of producers, versus also just different personal styles of producing and what they do. Well, the difference between like a venue producer versus a creative producer, or even, we're not even getting into genres as well. Like there's different styles of genres and like live performance to video producers, TV and music producers have a whole different meaning to that word, where they're a lot more like logistic, but like actual, like, technical focus of understanding how things go compared to live producers who don't normally have that same kind of technical knowledge. It's a really nuanced point, which I think, yeah, I think a funnel or they often say like herding cats and kind of all those elements of just, yeah, we are the ones
Unknown Speaker 7:03
In my head, this vision of yeah that's what you are, you're just directing everything to this one point.
Patrick Hayes 7:08
The other thing that often everyone says to me, whenever I ask what a producer is, they're just like, they're the people who make stuff happen, which just means we're overworked and tired a lot of the time.
Unknown Speaker 7:21
Even I mean, of course, I work part time, as education coordinator, at Malthouse now you don't have to bleep that out, it's fine. Because I think it's the same for any big organisation. But even the, you know, the producers there, it doesn't, you know, from what I see, nothing's clarified that much more than the independent sector, they are still doing kind of everything, even though there are, you know, separate roles now taking on those little tasks that maybe a producer would be in the independent sector, still kind of ambiguous.
Patrick Hayes 7:46
From my own personal reflection going into organisations producing often doesn't, once again, it's kind of a, you don't get told what you do do, or you get told when you move into an organisation is what you don't do. That's just from like, when I would be like being an independent producer, then go into an organisation, and then I would have a marketing team or something, and I would do stuff and they go, Well, that's not your job. Cool. I didn't know that. So sorry. I'm used to doing everything by myself.
Lyall Brooks 8:10
Exactly. Yes.
Patrick Hayes 8:11
So I guess in that kind of ambiguous sense, and and you've already already kind of mentioned that you don't prefer doing the more bland style of producing. But why did you become a producer? Was there something that drew you did you have a call moment? Or did you just have find yourself as a producer?
Lyall Brooks 8:28
It was tied into what we're just talking about? It just comes out of necessity, when you're starting your own independent company, unless you're lucky enough to have it, you know, a big group of people and all sort of know what you're doing and can start that ensemble vibe straightaway. You know, there's only a couple of us. We just had a necessity. I think it's sort of tying back to the last question to have what is a producer I think and that funnel idea. I think people tend to bring the end result to a producer and it's up to us to explore that back out and sort of you know, reverse engineer what will need to be done to get back to that point. And so I feel like you know, when we first started Lab Kelpie for example, we wanted to do a show and then you weren't sure we wanted to do and that was the end goal and we had the venue booked in and so from necessity we expand that back out and say what are the things that we have to do to get that show on in that space at that time? So that's really the why it wasn't like a burning ambition to become a producer I probably wasn't even that aware of like we were talking about before if you don't know you don't know of what a producer was. So that that was it. It was just I had to do it. But also you know, found I kind of enjoyed it. Yeah, I enjoy working with other people. You know, I don't love producing by myself. I like other people to to bounce off and pick up the slack and me help them pick up the slack when need be. I guess that's why I've stayed in it because I love the end result like like everyone else, I guess. Yeah, it turns into after a while it becomes an enjoyable chore, in some ways. funnelling everything to that one, one result. So that's why I stayed in it. To begin with it was just you have to, don't you,
Patrick Hayes 10:07
I mean, I think there's a lot of producers that kind of emulate that stepping stone, I actually used to make a kind of joke that producers are, I studied to be a drama teacher, at university that was my actual background, then there's often that kind of joke about drama teachers are failed performers, which I do not like, I used to make them the next standpoint were not necessarily failed. But it was like kind of that avenue for performers, where a lot of performers start off, artists making their own shows, doing all that stuff, they then learn producing skills from doing that, and then they start producing for friends, because friends think that they do a good job at producing their shows. Then they go oh now I'm producing four or five of my friends. Now I'm a producer. Now I've got a company now I'm doing like, it's like this kind of producers are actually that stepping stone away from artists sometimes. And that's where most producers come from, is that kind of, "I just stumbled into it". I think Laura and I are one of the couple of producers that I've met that because I graduated from uni and started producing that was my avenue. But that's because I did an internship and just kept going. But I don't, I rarely meet another producer that has had that kind of trajectory of just going into producing. It's always like, Oh, well, someone had to do it. And then now here I am. So many years later, and I'm still doing it. And it's like great. Cool. And you have to I think you have to enjoy it. Yeah, it's a real, it's real interesting point. And I guess like with like, out of necessity and kind of finding yourself like you're going I wanted to put on a show and do this and making Lab Kelpie and all those elements. Did you have like a penny drop moment where you suddenly were like, Oh, I am a producer?
Lyall Brooks 11:48
Oh, God, no, I still suffer from imposter syndrome every single day, I think you might have suspected I've just been terrified of having this chat today of being labelled a producer and having words come into my mouth that you know you think are going to be valuable for anyone. It's a horrible burden to think that no one thinks I'm a producer because he doesn't feel like that even though if I look back at the past 10 years, because that's what I've been doing.
Patrick Hayes 12:14
Looking. Looking at it, I would, I would say you are a producer, this is an aside. But I do understand I think producing is a really hard element to kind of have a yardstick for and kind of measure yourself up against because it is so fluid. And also, as I mentioned, like producers don't often talk to each other and like, verify each other. When we're kind of talking around and stuff. I used to work at APAM. And I guess we used to like establish stuff like emerging versus established over like the rule of thumb was first five years of your practice was you were emerging. And then after that you were established, whatever that means that kind of was the Government speak of how to define. But also even by that standard, that didn't always make sense. Because things change and you change practice, and you do all those points. But also in the last two years, especially in Victoria, no one's been making live performance really for the last two years with all the lockdown. So what does that mean for people who are going through this kind of experience?
Lyall Brooks 13:17
I guess? I mean, maybe that whole imposter syndrome thing I'm feeling right now is you know, maybe that's just this week, because you know, now that you're talking I'm thinking I should have said this my introduction to you know, I've actually I've coordinated a couple of tours to and I think that's sort of been my most my most successful kind of producing role that I've done. And and I guess I'm thinking of, you know, sitting there watching the work that you've coordinated a tour for perform, you know, open up in in its the remount and open for the first time and then going to visit it at a venue and then seeing it all wrap up. And you know, putting the set away in storage of those hadn't those horrible dirty work things, I guess, in those moments I've thought, You know what I did that? If it wasn't for me, this wouldn't have happened. I think talking just been, to what you were saying before to the different pathways into producing that I mean, you're right, so many producers end up coming from that artistic background and going into that out of necessity. So maybe it's more difficult for people who have done that to feel like, you know, to measure themselves as to what makes a good producer and when they're a good producer because it always feels like they're just doing it out of necessity, like I said, but I guess I separate that that you know what that reminds me of to is, is the school system I know what you mean before about those who can do those who can't teach that whole horrible motto that should be binned. What I'm really kind of happy about at the moment is this idea in Victoria anyway, in in VCE, you have drama stream, but you have this theatre study stream, which is this more sort of holistic idea of it's not just teaching acting, it's teaching putting on a show and when you take on different roles acting, directing, designing, stage management producing and I think from those sorts of classes, you will get more kids going into the biz going or that's what I I love doing and having worked in a couple of schools too as resident artist or doing things There are those kids and they're the smartest kids in the class. And they're the ones that just relish taking on board that that organisation role and yeah, I love that. Yeah. So So back to the I guess, to reenter the question of why did I become a producer or what that moment I felt like a producer, I think it was that it was tour coordinating. And I guess now because I'm, I'm sort of mentoring others in tour coordination and running a couple of webinars and things through through RAV and helped Laura out to with some of her things. I guess when someone calls on you. For advice or to, you know, to help out their mentees? I guess that feels pretty, pretty bloody good. Like, okay, I've got some skills. I've got some knowledge that I can pass. But yeah, just general, outside of touring, like getting a production onto the stage for the first time, that still feels quite nebulous to me, and I'll get there in the end. But if someone asked me how I got there, and to teach me how to do it, teach them how to do it, I would go back into my little shell like I did before, when you asked and go, I don't know about imposter, I'm a fraud.
Patrick Hayes 16:05
I think it's one of those things that I think it's just a constant navigation point. But like, I guess if we look at it as a standpoint, as you go through when you identify eventually as a producer, or those kinds of elements. My next question that I like to kind of talk about which once again, we've kind of mentioned is a bit fluid, what are the core skills you think producers need?
Lyall Brooks 16:27
Alright, well, now that I've actually in my head identified, okay, I feel more comfortable talking about producing tours, I've got a few more things to hang my hat on here. So what does a producer need the skills would be people skills, but I don't mean salesperson skills, necessarily. But that's also part of it. I think producers need to be be approachable and genuine and have the ability to make connections and I want to say friendships, but may let's say friendship looking relationships with people because you also need the you know, the flip side of that you also need to know when to to stand back and reject things and, and be the bad cop. So you've got I guess you have to be a walking set of of ambiguities and what's the word? What is the word? I'm after? The contradictions?
Patrick Hayes 17:15
Yeah, I think it's yeah, people people skills as a way to name it. But it's also this kind of like, you've got to deal with so many different personalities and different elements, and you've got enough wildcards as it is just putting on a production. First off, but then suddenly, all these different points, you almost have to be like empathetic and kind of start to really understand when someone's pulling away versus when they're not pulling away. Like I always detest, personally, the cards to the chest negotiating of the art sector has always kind of,
Lyall Brooks 17:45
I hate it, especially now I feel like it 2022 I think there are a lot more people that we you know, producers and presenters, and artists that we deal with that are sort of throwing that away, which is nice. We've there's I don't know for me there feels like there's a lot more collegiality in the business now but yeah, so that you still have those people's because I think that's, I feel like now the people skills that I've you know, exercised over the past 5 - 10 years, sort of paying off you know, people are seeing, I think you can spot a fake now, and I'm not going to drop any names there don't worry, you don't have to hover your finger over the bleep button. And this is all on top of all the other skills Yes, you need to be able to balance a budget you need to be able to and this is going back to what was saying before that you need to be able to listen to others when you know and you're doing it now you're creating this space where we can be you know, lean on each other and ask each other questions you need to be able to ask the question but also to listen and and pick up tips like picking up tips on I don't know God Excel spreadsheet formulas, you know, if someone says you know, I will show you mine if you show me yours or just I will show you mine have a look at it and pick over it. There's there's no competition really in the Biz.
Patrick Hayes 18:59
Yeah, I think that is something I Whenever I've been in mentorship components, like I've always really tried to hammer home is try to remove this idea of which, I mean, I think we both suffer with as well. So it's easier said than done. This imposter but like shame of I'm not a good enough producer to share my own ideas or things like that, or even just kind of go. I don't know how to ask these questions, because it means that I haven't done the job. Well, I think I used to suffer from quite a lot where I was like, I can't ask for help or I can't ask these questions. I'm worried that they're stupid. And then working in a festival environment. I then switch that and I like I know people are being paid to answer my stupid questions. Just ask those stupid questions. And also, I also know that as a festival person, sometimes when you're in those organisations, it's nice to know when you're not communicating things clearly. If someone's like, oh, I don't understand how this works or what's going on. I thought I said that and you go Oh, actually, I'm not explaining this very well to new producers or new artists and those kind of elements. And I do need a template of budgets and contracts, stuff like that.
Lyall Brooks 20:06
I think, I think a stupid question is an absolute gift, whether you're receiving it or giving it, it's a real gift for the other person. And and even I'm going to broaden that out and say, you know, a stupid question that hasn't even been asked. Even if I have a mentee who says, I do this other thing. What do you think? And it's amazing, I would let them know, as if I'd asked a stupid question. And they told me, you know, the obvious answer, I'll say, this is incredible. Thank you. Yeah. And sort of helping each other grow and, and being comfortable enough to ask each other stupid questions. I guess, maybe that's why, you know, my imposter syndrome doesn't cripple me. Those moments that I've realised we're all feeling that same way we you know, when you say to me, you feel the same, I think, wonderful, this, this feels lovely. I feel like we're all openly asking each other stupid questions when they've been asked to not Yeah, so And yet going back to what skills you need, that is a skill. And there are some personality types that don't maybe have that so easily. But I think it's really valuable to that the humility, I guess it is isn't an empathy and humility.
Patrick Hayes 21:05
Yeah. And I think it's a, as you mentioned, I think more producers are getting into that spot. When I was a Program Manager for Midsumma, I really was doing applications for Australia Council. And I was talking to artists, and I think I really shocked them, because I was like, I just need you to tell me how much the show is. You can give me a bracket of like what you think it could cost. But I need you to put like, give me an estimate of like, what it costs to pay your way. And if it's not that we shouldn't be doing this project, this poor artist had no idea how to handle this kind of blunt, just like just tell me and then we go yes or no. And then we just move on.
Lyall Brooks 21:42
I mean, even just from what you said, you know, you sort of hit on a bunch of other skills that you need as a producer, you know, that ability to say no, that that advocacy role. There's almost like a parental thing. You are fighting for the artists, when they don't want to or can't fight for themselves. You're stepping in there and and you sort of throw that impostor syndrome aside and say and think to yourself, I don't know this, but I'm going to pretend I do for their sake, I want them to feel comfortable that are getting well paid. I mean, the irony is, producers are often the last ones to be paid. And we were in there fighting for everyone else. But yes, there's all these other skills that you need, apart from what we've already said. And you know, hopefully, people who are listening to this whole series, get it, get an idea after a look at all these different skills that people are mentioning. Yeah,
Patrick Hayes 22:24
Yeah. Well, I kind of like talking within this space of sharing and connecting, I guess the next question I want to ask is out of all these skills that we kind of have talked about, and, like pinpointed. Is there one thing that you specifically struggle with as a producer? And like, how do you approach that, and manage that?
Lyall Brooks 22:43
I mean, asked me in the months target, it may change, but I think under appreciation can be really, can be quite soul destroying, when it's when it's constant. And I don't just mean from, you know, artists or other stakeholders you're working with it's it's all you know, it's it's people not maybe recognising the work you are doing, especially on a on something that I want to say, fails, for example, a grant application, you know, get or a work that's cancelled before it goes on, or a tour that has been on its feet, because again, you know, you're that you're the one that's funnelled everything to this one point, and at that point doesn't happen. It feels like can't feel like, it looks like you did nothing. When the truth is you have done all the things you always do something just happened before it got to that point. And look, it doesn't have to be that for people for you to feel underappreciated, for sure. But yeah, that's sort of, yeah, funnily enough, at least this year, you know, the this dichotomy of being a producer isn't is, as I said, at the moment, in the last 12 months, I feel like, it's a great time. And it's very collegial, and we're getting a lot of respect. But on the flip side, this year, there are more opportunities missed as well. And I feel kind of less respected. I mean, this time, I feel less at the moment, I felt kind of less respected by the people above us, the people in power that maybe have the chance, the ability to not just throw money at us, but to, you know, to give us opportunities and support the industry as a whole. I don't know whether you need to bleep all that later. But.....
Patrick Hayes 24:08
I'll go on. I'll join this kind of conversation for Yeah, I think it's a real point. And I will just add, for context for our listeners that we are recording this in July 2022. And I only just say that because the world changes week by week. And, you know, they don't want people going, why aren't they talking about World War Three? Why? Why isn't that part of this conversation? Because it hasn't happened yet. But basically, I think that's a real it's a real defining point. And I think one of the things that I've always noted with producing and I've talked to a lot of young producers about is we're in a real awkward, like, it's an awkward job, because if you're doing it well, people don't often realise the work that you've done, because it's like a smooth sailing ship. And then but when you do it bad suddenly it's all your fault it all or not even that, but it feels like it's all your fault because you were the one who was meant to be corralling everything. And then it's not doing that. And then, so if it's easy, it's great. But we're not very forward facing like we, we share that with like technical staff and things like that when a show runs really smoothly, technical wise. I know people clap them at the end when artists gesture to it, but general public just a bit like, sure I'm clapping for the back wall, I don't really understand. But I'm still. But it is that kind of very difficult standpoint. And I had a lot during lockdown as well, like working, I was working in festivals working at Midsumma. And I don't know if there was a lot of people who understood that I had these weeks where like, I couldn't tick a box, like I couldn't say I've locked in these artists, I've locked in this venue. All I could really say at the end of the week was I have artists that are not telling me outright No's. And that was my successes. And that was a really hard place to exist in because I didn't have anything to show for the work that I was doing of emailing and people management and trying to like HR, the artists, but I'm not going to throw shade at any specific person in in particular, because I think there was like also a different level of difficulty within that kind of the upper organisations or people within organisations or all those kinds of elements. But sometimes there was a bit more of not fully understanding the complexities of where the producers exist at the moment. And what it takes to put on an event. Which I think is like it's also understandable, like, I don't think you could run like an entire arts funding organisation. And then also understand what an every day independent producer has to go through to make and put on our show, because that's too much information for one brain. But it was a really difficult thing to kind of navigate. We because we were kind of we're operating as the middle management in a really weird way. Like, especially as producers within organisations like Lab Kelpie, or things like that, where you're getting funding from organisations, but then you're managing your organisation, and you're trying to do the best you can there. But then there's also this change of funds, which hopefully, you know, we get a new federal budget in October this year, there may be some changes to that within the change of government. I'm hoping
Lyall Brooks 27:25
Yeah,
Patrick Hayes 27:26
Who knows? I'm not super excited for it. But yeah,
Lyall Brooks 27:33
I feel like you're right. It is it is. It's a little challenging, isn't it to say, I feel disrespected by those above me. Because as producers, that's what we get as well, sometimes, like you said, when things fail,
Patrick Hayes 27:44
But I think it's all valid, like, I don't think that's the thing not to feel or points, but I think it's just something that we all kind of share.
Lyall Brooks 27:51
Yeah, I think there's there's two things I want to say. And that is that feel like for the most part, apart from you know, maybe a few other big things that have had in the past nine years. You know, those who are supporting the arts, it's their job to support the arts do a really good job, they do the best job they can. And you're right, they're going to drop some plates. But oh, God, what are the job? Does that sound like? Yeah, a producer. So I can't really get to yeah tantruming about that sort of stuff. Because I feel like, yeah, they're, they're in the right direction. It's just such it's a behemoth of an industry to have, you know, to have all those plates spinning. The other thing I wanted to say is reminded me of in that whole, you know, corralling, funnel, diagram, whatever we do, it's really hard to have strong markers, I think it's speaking to what you were saying before about working for the pandemic, strong markers to success is sometimes a marker might be there. But it really is just opening up the next lot of tasks that you have to do sometimes the market will the you know, the way the success been, we've we've cast someone in that role, that's not really yours. It's not seen as yours that's seen as maybe the directors, it's these things that you just have to you have to have a thick skin and say, I'm going to take that as a success. I can keep moving into box, I can tick Yeah. But often, the only big market is maybe that opening night. And then like you said they can now for themselves, gesture to the stage management that whether they point to for the producer.
Patrick Hayes 29:15
It's a it's a very interesting place that we exist in and those elements and once again, for the listeners, me and Lyall aren't going to solve all of these problems or bring up any radical solutions in these conversations. I think it's just one of those things that Laura and I are hoping from these kind of podcasts to, if at least a couple of producers listen to it and go Oh, okay. Yeah, I feel a little bit like that as well. Then it's kind of done its job. And it's kind of connected a little bit. Yeah. I mean, we're in the space of talking about the current climate anyway. So maybe we should launch into kind of the post pandemic, allegedly, even though it's still happening, conversation of the arts landscape. How are you tackling the current landscape of the arts world.
Lyall Brooks 30:02
*SIGH*
Patrick Hayes 30:04
Sighs enough of an answer, probably.
Lyall Brooks 30:06
Probably easier. That's the concise version, it's just that grown up really hard to know where to start with this, because we're in the right in the middle of it still, we, as Lab Kelby, we really just press pause on most things we did a bit of pivoting in 2020. I want to say, even though I've made that noise, just then I also want to say that I feel like we've been given a bit of an opportunity, a bit of a blessing in disguise or something, and just, you know, building on what I said before about feeling like, you know, who do you have to whatever to get money around here, like that might be a bit of a blessing to not getting the opportunities that we really thought we would and should, and that's not too arrogant to say, okay, you know, at the moment, we're going to kind of dismantle the company a little bit, a lot actually sort of raise it to the ground, but not in a tantrum and to walk away from but to, to rebuild it in a in a better, more diverse, more robust, more sustainable way. So I don't think we could have done that. If we had been just doing business as usual for the past couple of years. So I've got to say If COVID hadn't happened, I would still be burning myself out trying to do maybe 3 - 4shows a year under the love cookie banner and directing them enact in others and, and wonder why didn't have any money? So yeah, but that's for me. Personally, I feel like what we that's what we are at the moment regarding these external forces. They happened, we very quickly said can't change it. I know, there was a lot of, you know, shouting into the wind for a lot of people, which I which I understand but for us, we're just taking as a as the, I don't want to get all woowoo. But the universe tapping into the shoulder and saying, Hey, slow down, rethink,
Patrick Hayes 31:41
Look, I think that's a real great takeaway. Like there are, obviously there's been difficulties and I could record a whole other 52 Episode podcast on the difficulties of COVID that let's we acknowledge it, we know it, we've all tackled it. But I think that was definitely one of the benefits for me within a lockdown environment is that I did kind of break myself. But that meant that I reached a point where I did have to kind of go, I need to reevaluate how I'm working, why I'm working, and what I want to be doing, and I think I'm still in that process. But I think that was a very different way of working with it, because it just was a point of going you need to slow down, because you can't do things or I was trying to fix that, even though there was nothing I could do to fix that. Which I think a lot of producers were trying to find and create solutions in all those elements. Like, you know, everyone pivoted online, everyone did all this pivoting and pivot, everyone pivoted until there was no more pivots to have at the table. I think, regardless whether we liked it or not, it created an opportunity for reflection. And I hope there is some change that comes out of this. And I think there is I think there have been small incremental changes, I hope this more impactful changes. But I think even as we're talking people seem to be a little bit more understanding, empathetic, kind of going through that in a lot of our conversations within like venues and those elements. I think that is already a good step in the right direction, even if it is just because we're all very fragile at the moment. Yeah.
Lyall Brooks 33:16
I think, yeah, we can feel fragile. But I feel like there's also a hit the other word like musculature to where we're going, I can't believe I'm doing this, I'm about to make it like a gym reference, because people can't see me but, but I think very sort of visually, metaphorically, sometimes. So hopefully, someone who's listening will go, Oh, I get that. I feel like you're breaking, okay, which makes me think of good and bad breaks, I think of you know, when you go to the gym, and you're you're lifting weights, what you're literally doing, if you're doing it well is you are breaking the muscle fibres, so they build back better and stronger and bigger. And I feel like, that's the best way to have these, let's call them breaks, or to these things, but you know, there are obviously other sorts of breaks which are injurious and, and long lasting. So it's about I guess, avoiding those, or at least identifying what sort of break you're having, what sort of challenges your career your body is having. And maybe recognising, maybe it's being a bit of a Pollyanna, but recognising that this could be a break that helps me rebuild in a bigger, better, stronger, sexier way, then the, you know, the world sucks, and it's telling me to go back to bed, which is pretty easy to think and I think that every day. But no and I thought that makes sense and help someone to visualise it that way.
Patrick Hayes 34:33
Yeah, I think there's always like a lot of metaphors of different layers within like gym or like work or study or a stitch in time saves nine like sometimes taking those points, do the hard work or do those moments means that you can move on and I think that reflection or looking at those things is something I pushed aside a lot because I would just be moving on to the next job and keep on working and keep on working. Yeah, I think that's real interesting. The next kind of question we had is around funding projects that we've already kind of alluded to. So I was like, I was wondering how do you fund your projects with like, Lab Kelpie projects or other projects?
Lyall Brooks 35:09
Okay, so I'm definitely not an expert in this field. More, I'm more of a student, I guess when it comes to funding. It's very hard to, I guess, explain my position, because I guess I'm really rediscovering it or rethinking about how we as a company, as myself as an artist, or as a producer, you know, go about paying for what we do, I feel I feel like the regular the, you know, the hamster wheel that we all get on. And it can be, it can have a, you know, very small success rate. But there's enough of that, to keep us going like junkies is just that, that government funding of whatever level we go for, but you talk about just stopping and reflecting before. And I think, yes, we should be reflecting on ourselves, and how strong we have become, and how much our you know, our failures, or our challenges have built us up to be these wonderful, unique human being producers. But I think we could also use the past few years. And if we still are having a bit of a hiatus to look at other funding models around the world, I know, you know, for example, America does funding models very differently than the UK, I wish we had a UK system where the government is very generous with money. But I also understand the benefit of, you know, of looking more at partnerships and philanthropy. I mean, as I said, we're sort of rebuilding the company right now, instead of my main focus at the moment is instead of trying to find money to pay for the artists involved in this new venture, it's to pay money, it's fun money to pay a partnership person or a general manager or that support network, you know, the people that provide the infrastructure for the art to happen. So this new ensemble that we want to get together is going to have a secure place to play. And yeah, I feel like, who knows this could fail. And you know, whenever you're listening to this, you could no future Lyall failed at this. But that's where I think we need to go. And I guess that's sort of looking at what you know, what the organisations are doing. It is odd as an indie producer, I guess the first time you see a mainstage company and see the entire office or entire floor of philanthropy, other departments think, how much do you even cost to exist, but there's a good reason they're there, you know, they, they are worth their weight in gold. And they, they know, to keep their jobs, they have to make at least their wages, plus all these other stuff, you know, and these people are amazing. I can't imagine doing that job. That is certainly a part of the biz that I have no interest in doing myself. But I have not enough hats in the world to doff to these partnerships, people.
Patrick Hayes 37:33
Yeah, it's such a, it's such its own beast, like I work with a lot of festivals in my time. And if you, any of the listeners, if you want to look at some of those points, it's worth looking at those flick flick to the back of the guide. There's normally a sponsors page where they list all the different sponsors at all the different levels. All those elements Australia does sit in that little microcosm of we do government funding and sponsorship. But we also don't really do sponsorship on like, smaller show levels. I think. In Australia, my experience has been more likely that gets referred to as in kind While America is a lot more focused philanthropy, corporate corporates giving money towards things those kinds of elements and less government support while the UK has a lot of government support and those then you've also got the whole world of you know, Broadway and West End, which is all privatised all the sponsors, all those things, it's money is a really complex. Do Lab Kelby when you're touring, do you often work as in Buy-in's from venues? Or do you always always get caught? Buy-in just for anyone who's new to the producing world, that's just when a venue or festival pay you the fee to perform and then they retain the box office income from that kind of arrangement. But yeah, just wondering whether it was that or whether you actually book out venues and then take the risk or not. But I think that's very hard to do on touring some props to all the mainstream actors and performers that do that, like comedians are just hired and using settle out, but its terrible.
Lyall Brooks 39:07
Yeah. And I know. Yeah, I know, Laura has done that in the past too. He has a mix of both those models, depending on the size and and the style of show, we haven't done that yet. We're just too busy. As soon as you do that, then that opens a whole other, you know, box of responsibility. I'd rather spend all that time when I have the time in my schedule in my timeline of the project to make all the marketing amazing. So the venue has that to use as opposed to, you know, at the point where they're going to ask you to help out with the marketing because it's a copro it's a box of a split is exactly when you don't have the time you're remounting you know you're organising things, you booking things here. It's just zero time in the day left to do that sort of stuff the different to when you put it on a premiere season. Of course usually if you rented the venue and you're doing we were in marketing and social media and stuff on tour, it's it's very, very different. It's the most awful awkward time to have to pick up that responsibility.
Patrick Hayes 40:01
Yeah, and I think at the moment is a difficult time to work within Box Office even though all of us have to in many different ways, but it's she was hard enough to predict it at the best of times. But at the moment, it feels like all the usual algorithms or all the guesswork that we normally have, it's just out the window. Because we can't predict how the audience interacts. Like, I know Comedy Festival had a big drop off in ticket sales, I'll be very interested to see how other festivals happen. Like, I know, Melbourne Fringe is coming up. But I'd be interested to see how all of those ticket sales are going. And also just the crux that we all face, because I think we're all trying to train audience to buy earlier. And now that it's completely out the window, when
Lyall Brooks 40:39
Again, you know, we're recording this in late July 2022. It's going to be so quaint for someone in six months time listening to this, because he knows what's going to happen. But you know, at the moment in time we are looking at, we're being warned that over the next month, there's going to be an enormous surge in COVID case, but you know, I was at the theatre the other night in a full house. Very few masks, everyone just happy to be out again.
Patrick Hayes 40:39
I literally just woke up today and bought another $30 worth of N95 masks just in case I've got some projects I'm doing next week that I need to be in person. So I'm doing no more in person engagements until that happens like all these things with once again, it kind of frustrates me that all these decisions and measures have come out of the government's hand and are suddenly in our hands as individuals to manage. But yeah, it's just where we are at the moment.
Lyall Brooks 41:26
It's what we have to think about, like I know, I normally hate listening to podcasts where they say, Are we recording at this time. But I think as producers, we need to be aware of all these things happening all the time. So even if you know you're listening to this in the future where this doesn't matter anymore, there is something that matters just as much that you need to keep your finger on. And it's all nebulous in the future, and you can't control it,
Patrick Hayes 41:46
I still have flashbacks to trying to figure out how many people could get into a theatre, just watching the newsand all those kinds of elements. And not that this is like, once again, this isn't a COVID podcast. And I'll probably move on to the next thing soon. But those are the struggles that I think we all had to start learning I was even I was hanging out with a friend yesterday. And I was for some reason. Now, I never was an infectious disease expert. But suddenly I'm trying to learn Spiking in cases and what that means and mandates and all these nuances that has all these skills I didn't really want to have. But now suddenly, we need to have them and figure out how to put on a show.
Unknown Speaker 42:23
Yeah, you're right. It's not a COVID podcast, but it doesn't have to be COVID itself. Who knows what it is, it could be a recession, it could be World War Three, like you said, it could be a new something rather, that is, you know, passed on through touch as opposed to through air molecules. It could be none of those things. And it could be to some other, you know, economical or social or cultural thing that you have to consider. There's always something to consider. Do you remember, you know, before 2020, the things we'd have to worry about would be? Is there another festival at the same time? So our show won't sell as well? What nights of the week of the best, what time should the show start for our audience didn't want to come and see the show? Is it winter? Do they have drinks? And that seems like quite now we're dealing with COVID. But you know, there's always going to be something after COVID Whenever,
Patrick Hayes 43:05
Oh, gosh, one of the biggest arguments, not even arguments, one of the biggest disasters, I had not totally disaster either. But there was a performer who got naked in the show. And then it was like a big impact on liquor licences for venues because when they had drinks within a certain distance in certain states, liquor licences, change rules, and they have different meanings. Certain states had like rules where if there's liquor within a naked body, you have to go under basically, as I strip our venue, like a sex worker licence and all these kinds of points, which is just like I remember those conversations being the worst thing in my mind. You said, are people going to die from seeing my show? Those kinds of debates, but let's not go down that point, I said we could talk about COVID for the rest of time. So in all of these kinds of conversation points, why do you think producers are important to the art sector?
Unknown Speaker 43:58
Oh, look, I don't want to sound up myself. But I think we're and we're not the most important part of this system. But we are we are part of this, you know, sometimes very fragile ecosystem. And without us like, like any other system, you take one part away, the rest is going to either gonna fall apart or take a long time to work out how to fill that same role. And that's what it would be if you suddenly all the producers them all disappeared, people would find other ways other systems to fill those same tasks that need to be done. So we are part of the structure of, you know, in, in my case, putting on a show or putting on a tour. And again, that's not saying we're more important than the performers or the director or the designers or the venues or the front of house or with the tech crew or the stage management. We are just part of it. And I feel like like the you know, like you said before who who does the, who to the actors point to when it comes to thinking that producer. I mean, they don't we're not very visible, but that doesn't mean we're not, you know, a really integral. We're not a pillar really.
Patrick Hayes 44:58
Yeah, I often talk About whenever I talk about producing, I think it's like communicators, people connectors, like those kinds of elements where I think we're meant to be this kind of adapter between all these different facets of performing or live performance. And we then as you, as you said, like the funnel, the funnel is still probably a really great kind of metaphor. And, yeah,
Lyall Brooks 45:20
I've got to I've got, I've got the metaphor with the allen key in the IKEA. Allen key after IKEA, and there's no allen key in there. There is no hope of this whole thing holding together. Yeah. So the flashy, important visible bits, but by God, you need as.
Patrick Hayes 45:37
A producer as the Allen key in the IKEA box. I like that. I like that. As a point. Yeah, I think it's a great way of doing it with with that in mind, we're gonna move away from the macro conversation of the arts landscape, let's get down to the micro a little bit. And this might be a hard one for you. But when it comes to producing, was there a moment that you are most proud of you're producing, or your own skill?
Lyall Brooks 46:02
Yeah, I'm gonna go back to I guess, to coordination, because that's where I feel like I've had the most of the most failures and the most successes, but I guess that's, that's why this, I guess my answer is, it feels more important. The first tour that I sort of had coordinated in partnership with someone didn't get Australia Council funding, so we pulled it straight away. I always regretted that the next one we had didn't get funding, but we sort of tore it down and rebuilt, a replica of it. That could work and took some cuts here and there. But I think another big project we had, which was all across Australia over a few months, it didn't get the funding the federal funding we wanted, but I sort of knew enough by then that I was able to use my networks. And we got we sort of pieced together a bunch of different funding. So some venues put in more or sort of us my contacts, at Circuit Western in WA and went through state funding there before we stopped being able to Artour in Queensland's West, you know, we had three venues there that worked. And then I put in this last minute Touring Victoria funding application, which which got over the line, and all those sort of managed to fill the holes. We also did a lot of reorganisation, so it wasn't you know, in in a certain standard of hotel or we sort of went down the the Airbnb route as much as we could. And just were very sort of prudent with where we flew people and how we handled our freight and it was just a really well put together to a every logical tour. So I think, I think it before that finish, I think as soon as that started, and we hit that first day of remount, I was because I was in the show, then to I've got sort of had to put all that stuff aside and leave it with, you know, our tour manager and our stage manager, I just stuff I was I was really proud of it. And you know, and Adam, my partner sort of said to me, I cannot believe that you you not only saved this, but it's looking just so, so robust and and ready to go and I just thought that was lovely to hear. I didn't need to hear that to feel good. But that was really nice for someone else. Like we said, like you said, the whole cat I guess is we often aren't seen as producers, but to have someone just go Hey, you did this. I guess that's it. Yeah, those moments you can sit back when someone tells you not and go, I I did this, I tightened all those lnk screws up. And this cupboard is holding together and people are admiring it. If we ever I'm gonna now think I've exhausted that Allen Key metaphor now.
Patrick Hayes 48:26
I think I think it works. Well. Yeah, I can definitely, definitely empathise within that kind of stance. And it's a great thing to have those moments reflected for you a little bit.
Lyall Brooks 48:36
Seeing the product, I think it's the end of the funnel, it's the narrow end when something pops out the other side and you go, I did then it's just it's the best feeling it's kind of sound like a junkie, probably. But it's why we go back, isn't it for the next hit of I did that. This isn't healthy. Oh my god. This is therapy.
Patrick Hayes 48:55
mean, I could also go into a whole other podcast on arts, adrenaline, and some of the unhealthy practice that we all live in. Going from the proudest. The other thing that I also like to personally share is like, mistakes that we've made and those kinds of elements because I think that there's no real learning space for producers other than just doing where we kind of just have to, you have to do the producing to learn about the producing to become better at the producing. And that's kind of the way that we go about it, which means that we often make mistakes and learn from them. And I personally share a lot of them in my own life. But do you have any mistakes?
Lyall Brooks 49:32
oh God it's so hard to think, to given a specific example without making God Oh, my God, what
Patrick Hayes 49:41
we can also wrap it into the closing question as well. Because actually the other people I've interviewed, this kind of ends up being the closing question as well, where it's like talking about what piece of advice would you give yourself earlier in the career if you want to be a little bit less specific? We can manage that as well.
Lyall Brooks 49:57
I mean, Lance would be more general like I said before, you know So the context of the success was the mistakes I've made along the way, they're not the regrets because that means that we regrets need closure, you sort of turn those regrets into, into learnings, as is the word as I guess, the I don't have a biggest mistake. Because producing is, like you said, it's constantly doing, it's constantly trying, it's constantly making mistakes. So I don't there's no one biggest mistake they've ever made. It's all a chance to, to learn, I think it's really important to, to look back, open that folder of your very first production that you produced, and look at your grant application or something. And oh, my God, it's like, like finding your diary from year 8 or something. It's so embarrassing. But isn't it wonderful that you can find that embarrassing and think, oh, I don't I don't know when it happened. But obviously, I've learned a lot since then. And I would never write an application like that. Now. It's also a reason for you to keep doing stuff to not worry too much about are this application or this production, or this particular job I have to do has to be the most perfect robust thing ever. Just do it. I think you will have learned more than you you know, the yet recognise your mistakes, but don't worry about it. I think when you say What's your biggest mistake, it feels like I don't know why you would prioritise them or you know, have one or give it the gold medal of mistakes. If I had one if I've made you know the mother of all blowout somewhere, I would love to share it with you. And I will do it with a laugh and a Chardonnay. But yeah, I think it just a series of mistakes and successes things was why I'm here
Patrick Hayes 51:29
Just to make sure listeners don't walk away without anything. I'm trying to think of some of the ones that I've done in the past, one of the biggest ones that always like make wakes me up the most straight, like just everyone else in involved has forgotten about it. And they won't even know it's happened. But like, it's one of those things that I'll just go, oh my god, I can't believe you did that. Seven years ago, when I was like still an administrator. And supporting producers, probably more than producers. One of my tasks was to meet artists at airports. And we had like quite a significant and I won't say their name, but it was at Brisbane Powerhouse. And it was like the Cabaret Festival, I think it was like a very big name coming from America. And it will but it wasn't then it was their producer. And I was meant to pick them up from the airport at 5am. And unfortunately for me, it was middle of the festival period, I was extremely tired. And I must have woken up enough just to turn off my alarm. So I wake up in that way like just as their plane was landings, I there was no way I could get there in time. I was messaging them trying to be like, Hey, I'm so sorry. There was a weirdest thing where they made the biggest stink of me picking them up from the airport. It All. It all happened. I think they ignored me for the rest of their time in Australia. But it was a really that was one of my moments, which then I learned to set multiple multiple alarms and you know if I need to do that my phones on the other side of the room if I really need to make sure I'm out of bed and those kind of things. So learnings it's always about learning.
Lyall Brooks 52:58
To tell that story. I feel that in there like the pit of my bowels. Well, I feel where you were like you you said, How important was it In retrospect, not really. Yeah.
Patrick Hayes 53:07
Would you like once again, like I also and another conversation I could have for the end of time is like this weird, stress anxiety that we do around arts organisation or the arts.
Lyall Brooks 53:18
Yeah, it's an all consuming job sometimes, especially in those moments, especially in festivals. Like you're saying, I have never worked in the festival. But I have, you know, vicariously. So festival workers and festival producers, so yeah, of course everything is all the big things are enormous. And the small things are inconsequential. Yeah, it's just the way it is. Yeah.
Patrick Hayes 53:35
And I think you do I think people do get better as you go along in the career of identifying those things. I think when you're starting off, everything feels enormous. And like even the small mistakes feel colossal. But even when I look back now on that story, as much as it's like dread in my heart of me going through it if I was a Program Manager, and I had an Associate Producer messaging me began, oh my God, I didn't pick up an artist but they took an Uber to the accommodation. Me as a Program Manager would have been like, cool, but that they get to the accommodation. Yeah, okay, well, they're fine. It's fine. Move on. We'll deal with that at a different point is just it's so interesting. I guess that once again, as you said, like, go back and look at some other things. And you start to realise how different you are as a person or a producer down the line and you're like, ah, yeah, of course. That's just what it is. And we move on. And that's life.
Lyall Brooks 54:25
Yeah, I think yeah, as much as you know, independent producers especially have to have all these skills of an organisation. which an organisation would have individual people for I think you need to have those voices too you know, you need to have your supervisors voice in your head when you make a huge mistake. They go hey, it's fine. Did was the result fine, then get over it. Move on. Yeah.
Patrick Hayes 54:45
So I think we might just start to wrap up keeping in time the time and everything. Everyone who's listening I'll be getting socials and links from Lyall to include in the little show notes that are kind of link to anything you want to pitch if you want to follow Lab Kelpie or what they're doing or any of those kinds of spaces. I know a lot of people who've done like internships and stuff within Lab Kelpie of any of those opportunities in this new model of Lab Kelpie, I think jump on that thank you so much for your time. It's been a really interesting conversation.
Lyall Brooks 55:15
Thank you. You have You've taken my my imposter syndrome and soothed it and I hope I made sense and helped and made some good metaphors along the way.
Patrick Hayes 55:24
I think it's been a great time. And with that, I'll say thank you listeners for listening, and I'll catch you next time.
Laura Milke Garner 55:29
Hey, thanks for listening to the podcast. Nillkin is your go to for getting your show to the stage. We run industry leading courses, workshops for independent artists and producers, covering everything you want to know about producing your show. Want to find out more, head to our website Milke.com.au That's Milke.com.au.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
