Producers in Conversation with Anna Piper Scott
Full podcast Transcript
Laura Milke Garner 0:00
You're listening to a MILKE podcast, we acknowledge the traditional owners of the land of which we operate the Wurundjeri people of the Kulin nation. And with respect to where our collaborators, guests and listeners are, we extend our acknowledgement to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander elders past and present.
Patrick Hayes 0:20
Hello there, my name is Patrick Hayes, and this is Producers in Conversation. This podcast series is all about conversations with producers to share experiences, triumphs and difficulties as we try to find the answer to the elusive question, what exactly is a producer? Anyway, I have been working within the arts industry, with venues festivals and independently producing for nearly 10 years now. And I'm still not sure I have an easy answer.This episode, I am joined by self produced artists Anna Piper Scott as we talk around the complexities of producing your own artwork, knowing how to look ask for help along these projects, and also how to start small if you are looking to become a producer or get into those projects, and also how important it is to set goalposts and context to your work. So you can measure success along your journey in the arts. Anna in your own words, would you like to introduce yourself to our listeners before we begin?
Anna Piper Scott 1:25
So my name is Anna, Scott, my pronouns are she/her, I usually describe myself as a comedian, a Trans woman and the voice of a generation. And I said that as a joke, and then people keep repeating it, which I'm quite appreciative of. Yeah, mostly a standup comedian occasionally producing my own stuff, usually. And then a bit of directing here and there, communicator would be another thing. This is a bit of a cliche, but every Trans person is an activist, um, that by default by obligation more than necessarily desire. Yeah, I think that's the best summary.
Patrick Hayes 1:59
I think that's a great kind of encompassing and definitely, as I come from being the Program Manager of Midsumma, I can definitely attest to a lot of those attributes of sometimes more those kind of,I guess, like more focus community, artists definitely get activism, as they often want to do anyway, in certain elements, but definitely thrust upon them in a lot of responsibility, which can sometimes I've seen some very emerging artists very much struggle juggling that activism versus art mantle sometimes.
Anna Piper Scott 2:28
Yeah, it's I think activism art is a very difficult thing to balance. I think activism comedy is an even harder one. Yes, you have to take things very seriously and not seriously at the same time is incredibly tough balance, because they're completely opposed quite often
Patrick Hayes 2:46
Well luckily we are in a time where there's no political difficulties in our rights, you know,
Anna Piper Scott 2:52
Yeah, especially for Trans people. It's never been more peaceful for Trans people than right now. Every Trans person I have been talking to just feel like, Oh, what a relief. What a relief. There's nothing's been happening for the past few months. What uh, oh, if we can just relax for a while.
Patrick Hayes 3:07
I will just cover us both by saying we are both very clearly being sarcastic in a very visual form as well. But this is a podcast, I will just say that we are being sarcastic. Yeah, we're kind of here to talk around, producing and all things kind of that art space. So I guess like one of the first kind of questions I've been asking in this podcast series is, what is your definition of a producer?
Anna Piper Scott 3:33
It's, it's real hard to pin down because every producer does different things. But specifically, within a live context, I think of a producer is the person who makes the show happen. I think it's the best, simplest way to describe it. I think of for me personally, as someone who is self producing that producing is everything I do when I'm not on stage.
Patrick Hayes 3:59
That's a pretty apt point, especially for that stage, a producer who is live performance, I feel like something that's come out a lot of these conversations is that there isn't a very strong definition of what a producer is, we're a very liminal flexible role that seems to fit into a lot of categories.
Anna Piper Scott 4:18
Yeah, and every producer does different things. You know, some producers will handle more of the admin side of things and producers will be involved in funding and you know, making the show happen with money some will make it will be like creative producers who are actually in kind of a consultancy role. But I really think of it as Yeah, the producer is the person who makes the show happen, you know, this show couldn't have happened without this person's work.
Patrick Hayes 4:45
Great way of like, looking at it and like, as you mentioned, just before, you're a self producing artist. So I guess the next kind of question I have is like, I guess why did you become that kind of self producing artist? What was the reasons that led you to that point?
Anna Piper Scott 4:59
I mean, I don't know, if I've met an artist who hasn't self produced at some point in their career. I mean, I think that's the kind of goal for a lot of performance is to get to the point where they can stop producing their own work and have someone take it over. I think it's very rare that someone comes in with someone already looking after that work for them. And quite often, those people are very privileged people who have like a parent or a loved one who has the financial backing and the the ability to kind of, you know, produce their work. But yeah, I self produced because I had to, you know, I wanted to make the show happen. And there was no one else to do it for me. So I had to dive in the deep end and learn how to do it.
Patrick Hayes 5:43
Yeah, which I think is one of the main reasons we really wanted like a self producing artist involved in this little suite of interviews that we were doing is because Laura and I definitely, as part of MILKE, we're like looking at the landscape of producers and everything. And producers have always been a bit of a short coming in that kind of like there's not a bunch of us just existing ready to take on work every day. But especially after the lockdown, there's been a lot of producers that seem to have like left the field or a really reducing the amount of work they're doing. And I think they'll just be a lot of call, as you said already that a lot of artists have to self produce, especially within that open festival, Comedy Festival, Fringes, that kind of context. But with the financial realities of the arts at the moment, it's really hard to justify that kind of extra mouth to feed as it were in that shortcoming until there is more money coming into the production.
Anna Piper Scott 6:37
Yeah, which is a bit frustrating, because it feels like personally, I feel like I would be able to make better work and get better sales with a good producer behind me. Because it's just kind of like every hour offstage, so that I'm spending, promoting the show, emailing out media releases, whatever doing admin is an hour that I'm not spending writing new jokes, it's an hour, I'm not spending rehearsing an hour, I'm not spending, you know, like going over stuff and thinking of new things and like enhancing the actual thing I'll be presenting. And on top of that, it's, it's not something I'm naturally accustomed or climatized, to, you know, I feel like a lot of self producing art, like the artist mindset and the admin mindset, a very different, you know, like a produces a very creative people, but they're usually a bit more pragmatic than a creative person a bit more practical. So it's just kind of like, I have to get into a different brain space, that I'm not acclimatised to. And I'm like, if I have someone who can do that, who is good at that they could be getting better sales, we can get more money in and you know, it's another mouth to feed, but it's another person to get food for that mouth, you know?
Patrick Hayes 7:44
Yeah, it's a real difficult balance to kind of juggle in that sense. And I think you're right, like it like producing is its own craft, as it were, and like, as performers, comedians, actors, dancers, they spend so much time developing their own performative craft, then you have suddenly this whole other job, career, lifestyle, brain mindset that you have to kind of wrap your mind around, as well as influencing the creative aspects of your art as well as working within like, as a producer, within the festivals, I've seen a lot of artists have to struggle with that kind of balancing act.
Anna Piper Scott 8:19
Yeah. Especially when you see people doing their first time producing or it's the first time doing their own show, just by themselves a solo show, and just them kind of torn between working really hard on making sure that they've never done that before. And they might, they feel like they're gonna have a perfect hour, that no one will see, because they didn't produce it properly, or working so hard, learning how to produce for the first time during that production, and then having a bunch of people come to see something they're not proud of.
Patrick Hayes 8:48
Yeah,
Anna Piper Scott 8:49
you know, come see me be terrible for an hour or no one, come see me be great for an hour. And it takes a long time to learn that balance as a self producer.
Patrick Hayes 8:58
Yeah, well, I guess it's interesting, because I also think I've talked to a few artists that wouldn't even call themselves self producing either, like they don't really understand the work that they're doing to make their show happen, would be classified as producing, they just go I'm an artist making my work happen. So I guess when did you realise that you were a self producing artists and stepped into that role.
Anna Piper Scott 9:19
It's probably a little embarrassing that I think it took me a couple of like festivals to realise that I think it was ever like a penny drop moment. You know, it wasn't just kind of like me being like, oh, no, I'm a producer, you know, that that moment in Jaws where the background suddenly recedes away. It was just a gradual realisation that just kind of like I was hearing more and more about producers and thinking I should get one thinking about like, Can I get an agent? Can I get a manager? all those kind of questions to performance, think about. And it's like, well, if I want one of these people, what do they do and then finding out, they're doing all the stuff that I've already been doing, you know, and there's not a lot that they would be doing that I haven't already been doing for myself. And most of the top level people I could be getting to produce me or manage me or be my agent, the big difference that they would have for me is contacts and network. And that's about it. And it's just oh, I guess I guess I've been a producer this entire time. That's embarrassing.
Patrick Hayes 10:18
Look, I have gone through a similar process. And I was actually just producing I wasn't even being an artist in those standpoints. I was just kind of going oh I'm doing things and helping out. And then it took me a long time, I think actually took like a professor that I knew at my university to pull me aside and go, actually, you're producing things. And I was like, What is this term that you're telling me that I am? So yeah, I think I do not think it's embarrassing at all. And as I said, I know a lot of artists who I would say, oh, you know, you're working with budgets, you're doing your own marketing, all these elements. And they would be like, oh, yeah, but I'm just doing what I have to do to get the thing out. And that's what it is.
Anna Piper Scott 10:54
That's what if I hired a producer, that's what they would be doing is just doing what they can to get the show.
Patrick Hayes 11:02
Exactly. It's, I often call myself like the Swiss Army knife of the arts, like you just kind of have to have a little bit of every skill under the sun to make it all happen.
Anna Piper Scott 11:11
Yeah, Ihave occasionally like worked with people who have been producing CO producing effectively with me, I've just engaged my friend, Olly Lawrence to do some stuff with me for Melbourne Fringe, which I'm very excited about because they're wanting to become a producer. But it's very much you know, in that Swiss Army Knife context, I don't think any one producer is good at all parts. So I think it's a kind of being a bit kind of like conscious as an artist finding a producer and going, what am I good at? What do I need most from a producer? What do I need them to excel at? And I think that's why I'm really excited to work with Olly is just were moving into like a current co-producer arrangement where I know the stuff that I've done at producing that I can handle that I'm good at that I can keep doing on my own and I know the stuff that I want to delegate to someone else, because they think that someone else would be better at it than I am.
Patrick Hayes 12:00
Yeah, I mean, and we've kind of touched on this in this little conversation. But I guess like what are the core skills that you think producers need or that you as an artist, really want from a producer?
Anna Piper Scott 12:13
I mean, what I really want from a producer is money. But that's, that's very hard to come by. There's there's part of me that just wants to produce who is just a wealthy benefactor, just some lazy billionaire with money to burn more realistically, I think it's yeah, a sense of practicality, a sense of pragmatism, a sense of logistics, I think it's the word I'm looking for the the ability to kind of go from what the ambition is, what the end goal is, and going, how do we get there, because I think a lot of performance a lot of artists like, Okay, I want to do this thing with, like, want to do a show with like, 20 performance, or I want to, I want to play this, you know, theatre, I want to apply to 300 people, I wanted to tour to this city, like whatever the goal is, I think artists are really good at that part really good at that kind of like ambition and the vision, but really bad at filling out the steps in between, you know, it's like, okay, you're here, and you want to be there. How do we get there? What's the path? We want to be at this pragmatism and practicality. Not in a sense of kind of going, we can't do that it's not feasible, but going, how do we make it feasible? How do we make it possible? And I think that's the best kind of producers, I think are good at that I'm good at kind of like strategizing all the different parts of that going, Okay, well, you want to play this big theatre, yeah, and you're gonna need a big marketing campaign to fill that theatre. So that kind of marketing campaign needs to be hitting these demographics, the ticket price for this kind of theatre needs to be this much, you're not gonna be able to sell $30 tickets at this 800 seat theatre and make money, it needs to be $60 tickets. So if we want $60 tickets, we need to be advertising to this demographic, they can afford to pay $60 for a ticket. And that's the kind of stuff that a good producer is good at is answering those logistical questions and thinking of the logistical questions in the first place, in order to be able to answer them.
Patrick Hayes 14:05
Yeah, I think that's definitely some in the multitude of ways that I've been producing. I think that's definitely been a way that I've tried to tackle it is not necessarily saying no, but I guess once again, offering all of those options or steps and go, okay, cool. If you want to do that, these are the eight steps that we need to go through. To get to that point, or one of the biggest constraints is probably budget, as we've already mentioned, getting money into the arts is always a real difficult time. Also more of late with like a lot of funding rounds being cut to a lot of budgetary, federal wise being cut down. But, you know, it's still just a very difficult time within the art sector to kind of make sure that budget is there. And that's often one of my biggest conversation points is going Yeah, cool. We could do that, but unfortunately, the budget has an extended that far.
Anna Piper Scott 14:54
Yeah. And I think it's also having an awareness of like the trade offs as well. So having a producer who can go okay, here are the different ways we can do it. Here's the benefits of doing it this way. Here are the cost of doing it this way is the you know going, Okay, we have two venues that we can go to for this Fringe Festival for the benefit of this one is that it is managed directly by the festival it's in a prime location, but the venue hire is a bit bigger than this other venue which is a bit further away, and being able to kind of like compare and contrast all of those variables and come up with a choice and knowing why you're making that choice for reasons other than just gut instinct, which is I think what a lot of artists tend to run on, you know, just kind of like not sure what the trade off is, and just kind of panicking and being like, Oh, well, I'll go with this one, because I just feel safer for some reason, or I'll go with this option, because I know people who've performed there, so it can't be that bad. And they're not able to like think through those logistical decisions as well as a good producer can.
Patrick Hayes 15:56
Yeah, I think that list of like pros and cons for most decisions is always a producer's best friend, I guess looking in those producing skill sets. Like, we've kind of talked about money and things like that. But what, what is one thing you struggle with being a self producing artists? And how do you manage that, in that sense?
Anna Piper Scott 16:14
The biggest thing I struggle with is I've got ADHD. And it gets pretty bad having ADHD, especially living artists lifestyle, which means there's not a strong routine, which makes a lot of the symptoms of ADHD worse. So that means I've really struggle with stuff like that just the basics of replying to emails, hitting deadlines, doing my work at the same time that everyone else is doing work, which is more important as a producer than as an artist, you know, as an artist, it doesn't matter if I'm making art at 3am. But it does matter if I'm replying to emails at 3am. Or if I need to, like, call a venue and I'm doing my admin at 3am. You know, that's the stuff that really inhibits me is that kind of like, just like the pure like admin of getting things done in a timely fashion, both during the day, and over the course of like, a few weeks, you know, getting stuff submitted on time, especially, I think the hardest thing for me is that I struggle being accountable to myself, which is a big, common thing for people with ADHD, you know, people who are neurotypical be like, Oh, well set yourself a deadline and give yourself a reward for meeting that deadline. And it's the ADHD responses, like, okay, but if I'm in control the reward, I can just give it to myself now, you know, like, you get to have a bowl of ice cream, if you reply to all your emails and like, okay, but I know where the ice cream is, I can just have ice cream. Why do I have to, whereas the idea of disappointing someone is terrifying. So if I'm externally accountable to someone else, if it's like, you have to get this stuff submitted on time, otherwise, your producer is going to be annoyed or disappointed or whatever, that is so much more incentivizing for me. So that's something I really struggled with personally, is hitting those goals and being and being accountable to myself.
Patrick Hayes 17:58
Yeah, I think I actually haven't really thought about it in that kind of sense. But yeah, I think you're right, like being in that kind of producing mindset, you're kind of running your own business, which does have like a lot of flexibility and those kinds of ways. But also, as you said, there are suddenly you've moved from like that artistic world necessarily of entirely art freedom to limited timelines, like you do need to work within at least some a little bit in that nine to five range to talk to venues and festival teams and things like that, because that's when they all work. All those elements. Yeah, I actually hadn't really, like process in my own mind why sometimes I've struggled with that in an independent producing world, because I've also done stuff where I'm like, oh, you know, I'll do some chores during the day just out and about when I can, and then I'll work at nighttime, but then yeah, really stumps and slows down and kind of creates that.
Anna Piper Scott 18:48
Not just that though, when I'm producing stuff that has other people involved, that I produced, like lineup shows, I put on an open mic night back in Perth when I was living there, you know, variety shows, whatever that producing stuff, rather other people who I'm responsible for, and like, if it's if it's my own show, and I don't produce it properly, I don't make money. The only person who suffers is me. And I don't find that terrifying enough to motivate me, but the idea of like booking a performer, and then I haven't done the work to get an audience for them. And that means I've let down a friend, I've let down a colleague and that is much more motivating. And it's much easier for me to be a producer when someone else is also the artist. And it's much easier for me to be the artist when someone else is the producer.
Patrick Hayes 19:33
Yeah, routine in its own right, especially in the last two years has been completely thrown out the window for a lot of people who are neurotypical so I think like definitely within those spaces, I think you're definitely not alone with people who are struggling to kind of, the delayed gratification as someone who suddenly worked from home for the last two years became very hard to manage when it was like but I could have a nap because my beds right there the whole time. Why do I have to email 40 venues and then have an nap.
Anna Piper Scott 20:02
I mean, this probably is kind of like adjacent to what you were asking of like, how do you how do you manage it. And I think the really important thing for me and it's very common for producers to be working from home is is having as much as possible, a defined workspace. So I've made sure that I've got like a desk that set up that separate from where I do, just hanging out, you know, I try not to make sure it doesn't make sure I'm not working in my bed. You know, or anything, it's very easy to be like, I've got my laptop in bed, I've been watching videos, like, it's very easy to blend those spaces when you're working at home. But it makes it very hard to stay focused and being at work zone because you're like, Well, my beds right there. And this is the room that I hang out and relaxing. So it's very hard to work in. But also it ruins your ability to relax because it's the room that you work in, you know, like you're there napping or watching YouTube or Netflix or something and you're there being like, My desk is right there and I can see it I should be working and I've got those deadlines and stuff like that. So it means you never relax and, you know, do recreational stuff properly. Yeah, and that also means you never work properly. So it's very important for me to like try as much as possible have those be defined spaces, it means that I try whenever possible, even if I don't have to, to leave the house to do work, even if it's going to like a library or a cafe or something like that. But just having that less of routine, but it's making sure that it's a way to kind of like trick my brain into being in a workspace.
Patrick Hayes 21:30
Look, I think it's great to mention because yeah, like I was Program Manager at Midsumma when the big lock the big scary lock downs of not being able to leave your house except for like five kilometres only one hour a day kind of vibe. So I was trying to run a festival. But my office because I live in a share house was in my bedroom. And I effectively didn't just have a break down eventually because yes, I definitely could not separate. Work bled into my life in all aspects, which was not a healthy outcome. But that was also a lockdown mentality. So even now and I'm working from home now working within MILKE I often do like go to a cafe when I need to smash out some work and stuff like that and just sit in a different space to kind of help refresh my brain.
Anna Piper Scott 22:14
Yeah, it's even little things that I found helpful of being like, if I cannot be in a different space, being in a different outfit, at least you know be like I'm gonna get dressed for work and I might be literally me changing from when t shirt into another t shirt or me putting on my shoes, even though I don't need to go anywhere. And still being like very lazy and casual and comfortable clothing. I'm just wearing a t shirt and jeans right now. But I'm in a work mode. I'm not in my pyjamas. And I could have been pyjamas on this call, no one would have known but I'm gonna workspace and doing this podcast, I'm talking to Patrick, so I need to be in work clothes. And I think even that is really helpful.
Patrick Hayes 22:50
Yeah, I mean, it's kind of leads quite nicely into the next question. Because just for context for our listeners, I will just say we are recording in July 2022. Because I just say that because every month, this world gets crazier and crazier. And that can impact how we talk around like the landscape right now.
Anna Piper Scott 23:08
Yeah, just two months from now.Why aren't talking about the zombies. Zombies have changed everything. Why are they not? we don't know about the zombies yet.
Patrick Hayes 23:19
Crazier and crazier every week and I cannot believe it sometimes. But in the current climate of like this kind of weird. And I'll do this in air quotes, even though no one can see me this post pandemic time within Melbourne. How are you dealing with the current climate in regards to like the art sector and producing?
Anna Piper Scott 23:39
It's, it's really stressful. I, I think there is I think for a lot of performers and producers, this kind of conflict between wanting to put on art and put on shows and I think everyone in the lockdowns realised how important seeing live performance is for nurturing the soul. But also, there's still a virus going around and there's waves peeking and stuff like that. And it's just kind of like how do I do this responsibly and ethically, and still make money and still feed myself and, you know, am I am I being a bad person by encouraging people to come out of their house, but am I being a bad person by not putting on art for my community that needs art? And it's just it's, it's a hard thing to tackle. And I think it's just for me, it kind of requires a bit of compartmentalising of going, I am not the government, I am not in charge of controlling this pandemic. I can do the things that I feel are personally responsible, like wearing a mask and getting vaccinated encouraging other people to do the same promoting policies that I support and just encouraging other people to do the same. And then whilst putting on my own show was hoping that the people were coming, have done a RAT test encouraging do that if I can, I hoping that people who come wear masks and just hoping that when I'm putting a show on isn't coincidentally a bad time, which I think is the most stressful part of it is going I am, you know, as a producer, you're always kind of working on this, like 2, 3 ,4 month timeline between when you start producing the show, and when the show happens. And that is so much more unpredictable than it needs to be. You know, it used to be that, like, I know what things are gonna be like, in two months. I know what July is typically like, and I know what August and October are typically, like, whatever. I know what this festival is typically like, and now you're going, am I gonna put it on, and it's gonna be the middle of a wave, and it's gonna be the peak of the wave, and no one wants to leave the house, or am I going to decide not to do a show. And then it turns out that is like the low point of a cycle, or there's a brand new drug treatment, and suddenly everyone's like, happy to leave the house. And I could have been at a really successful festival making a lot of money. And I chose not to and it's just constantly balancing those trade offs. There's just it's like, I'm not an epidemiologist, I'm not a policymaker, I can't answer those questions. And what I what I've got right now, some mantra, which I got from, from my therapist, thank you to her is plan for success and improvise for failure. That's my little mantra of just kind of like, do all the things that you need to do to make something successful plan on it being successful hope for it being successful, and if things go wrong, trusting that I have the ability to improvise, and think on the fly, you know.
Patrick Hayes 26:37
I think that's a great kind of flip of that was what's the what's the old adage is like, hope for success plan for failure, or like those kinds of like hope for the best plan for the worst kind of thing. But as someone who has that mindset, that was an incredibly stressful time, when the worst was happening all the time around me for the lockdown. But yeah, I think that's a really great encapsulation of the timelines that you mentioned was a really big part of my struggle within that coming out of lockdown was that things take months and months to plan, organise, curate, produce, market all those elements, but we couldn't predict a week by week, it was this really weird yeah duality. And then suddenly, it came out of the hands of the government, and we had mandate, and then it all shifted in personal responsibility for the artists to figure out how ethically they sat in that situation and all those kinds of elements. So yeah, definitely echo a lot of that stress within the current climate right now.
Laura Milke Garner 27:39
Yeah, I don't think there's ever gonna be easy answers for this. I think it just requires us to be like just advocating as much as possible for that public health is a public responsibility, which means there's also a government responsibility, you know, and that doesn't necessarily mean lockdowns, that doesn't necessarily mean, you know, that we go back to managing it like how we did before , but it could mean a bunch of other policy measures, rebates for installing new ventilation or something like that, the creative solutions, the kind of solutions that producers are great at coming up with, and that politicians are less great at coming up with,
Patrick Hayes 28:13
I think, well, you know, we've kind of mentioned a little bit before, like, it'd be great if the government had subsidies or supports that we're there to kind of like help reduce the risk financial risks for artists as well right now, but guess we'll see what happens over the next couple of months, which kind of leads very well into the next kind of question, which you mentioned before, that you'd love to find, like a sugar daddy producer to kind of cast money and self fund these kinds of projects. But at the moment, how are you funding your shows? Like how do you go about funding a project?
Anna Piper Scott 28:43
It varies, I have been quite lucky in terms of grants and stuff like that. So I mean, for instance, I'm going to Sydney fringe, and they have done a lot of great work and getting their festival funded. So a lot of the upfront costs have been waived or mitigated in various instances. Same thing with Melbourne Fringe, which is coming soon, I will be doing a couple shows them. It was great. We'll have some micro grants, waived my registration fees. Most of my work, though, is funded by my work, you know, usually the grants I'm getting I kind of just lowering the upfront cost. They're not funding the show, necessarily, but I try and just do whatever I can to get the cost to come out of the ticket sales, wherever possible. That's usually the kind of stuff I opt for when kind of choosing between venues is I would rather higher profit share, then a lower upfront cost. So doing a venue where they pay 30 where I pay them 30% of my ticket sales and that turns out to be three grand four grand something like that, rather than a venue higher upfront that a grant because I know that I put on good shows. I know that I'm good at getting people into my shows. I occupy a pretty distinctive place in the market. There's not a lot have comedians who do what I do, and who can speak about the experiences that I speak about in the way that I speak about them. So I'm pretty good at getting audiences in. And I usually best off when the audience are the ones funding the show. That's what I'm usually trying to do. And I'm trying as much as possible that the profits from one show the stuff I take home trying to put that in like a separate savings folder in my bank so that I can then use what I've made from one show to fund the next iteration of it.
Patrick Hayes 30:30
Yeah, great. And I think it's worth mentioning to look into those micro grants for Sydney fringe and Melbourne.Alot of fringes do run those macro grant programmes now. And they're great and awesome to kind of help, as you said, not necessarily pay for the entire cost of the show, but to help cover the registration costs, reduce the overall costs of shows. So..
Anna Piper Scott 30:51
Yeah, not just micro grants for but I feel like festivals are pretty open to talk to, I mean, you might want to correct me on this as someone who works at Midsumma, but in my experience, they'll have on the page, they'll have all the stuff. This is what the registration fee cost is what the you know, these are this is whats upfront, and stuff like that. And that's 90% of time going to be the case. But every now and then you can talk to them and be like, I've really want to do this, I've done this before, blah, blah, this is what I'm struggling with, how is there some way that you can help and sometimes it might be that they waive it, sometimes it might be that only it costs will pay up front, but you can pay it on the backend because they like you or they care about your show. Or it can be that they can point you towards a resource that you might not know about, they can point you towards micro-grant. So if I run into something money related as an issue, rather than just like panicking, or scrambling to find the money or opening a credit card account or something like that, it's usually best to send an email to the festival explaining what the issue is, and the bind and seeing if they can help be part of the solution. And they often want to be you know, the festivals want to make the art happen. They want the shows to happen, especially if they booked you into a festival manage venue, it means that they care about what you're trying to do. So let them help you if they can. And sometimes it's not going to be a big multi grant grant that funds your entire season. But I've been able to get grants in the past, for instance of like a grant to cover the cost of a Auslan performer because there's access grants, specifically grants for accessibility, but aren't just for art, you know, and it's kind of like, okay, well, that doesn't maybe if I didn't have that grant, I wasn't gonna get those Auslan Performer, but an Auslan interpreter, but if I get that grant, I get an Auslan interpreter, I get more ticket sales from a specific part of the community that's underserved. It's stuff like that, that I try and look for, and try again, this is producing, it's being creative with the solutions, you know, it's not just kind of got just here's the obvious answer, we can't do that. So we can't do it. It says the obvious answer, we can't do that. What are the less obvious answers? How do we be creative? Maybe I've seen performance fund shows by getting someone to sponsor them, you know, because they're doing a show about like a specific industry, you know, like, maybe they're doing a show about fashion. So why not get a clothing store to fund your show, and you can wear one of their outfits. And you can at the end of the show saying I'm wearing an outfit I've dressed by this store go see them. And that's not compromising the art. And it makes the art happen. It's like it's like, it's not just the government or your money necessarily, they can make sure happen.
Patrick Hayes 33:28
Yeah, I think that's a great point. And I also like really want to like kind of reference as you were talking to like reaching out to festivals and asking for help. As someone who's worked with in festivals, I would encourage anyone who's feeling conflicted or not sure how to make something happen to reach out to the festival teams. That's kind of what their whole shtick is, and that's what they're there to do is to help and support the best that they can. On a separate point. I've also like someone who's applied for a lot of like government grants as well. There's often contacts or supports within those systems where I've always called and, like, spoken through my grant proposal, and like made sure that it does verify does align does make sure all those points, which is that little bit of extra work, but sometimes they've given me really strong hints about what are being looked for in those grants. And then I've been able to like kind of angle and change my application for that. Yeah, it's worth an email at least. And then if the worst that happens is people just tell you that they can't help and then you've you've lost five minutes of sending an email basically, that's a really great kind of takeaway from that.
Anna Piper Scott 34:32
Yeah, never gonna send the email and be, you know, more poor afterwards, you know, maybe gonna send email be like, Oh, now I have an email.
Patrick Hayes 34:43
Yeah, that's that's kind of the whole whole shtick, and it's, you know, people are paid to help and we should get as much help as we can. In those situations, which I know we we kind of have mentioned this interaction a little bit in the past as well. But this is the question that I just like to ask especially within In the kind of artists context, why do you think producers are so important in the art sector? Or do you think they are important in the art sector?
Anna Piper Scott 35:08
I think I think they're really important. I think one of the reasons the art sector is suffering at the moment is, is there's a dearth of producers, there's not a natural correlation between the kind of brain that can produce works of art, and the kind of creativity that requires and the kind of person who can make a show happen and that and still, that's still creative work. But it is a different kind of creativity, you know, the difference between like, I want to express an idea and a theme and the creativity of problem solving. And there's an overlap, but it's not a natural overlap. And I think a lot of artists are terrible producers, I don't think of myself as being a particularly great producer, you know, I find that a lot of my shows, sell on word of mouth, which says to me that the work I'm doing to market the show is not as good as the show itself, that I struggle to promote it and struggle to get people in. But once people are in and see the show, they go out there and they spread the word, and then I sell the tickets, which means like, Oh, I'm doing something really good that people would like, you have to go say this, but I'm not conveying that in my marketing or my advertising as well as I could be. And I think that's probably happening to a lot of people out there. And there's probably a lot of people who are worse at producing than I am, who are as good as artists, or probably even better as artists, and they're not even getting that initial batch of people in to then spread the word of mouth, you know, like, there's a lot of great performance and great art that's going unseen, because there's not a producer there to help get the word out, get the audience into see it. And then what is it? You know, if I tell a joke, and no one's had a laugh? Did I even tell a joke, you know, very zen koan type approach.You know, was the comedian on stage show falls in a forest.
Patrick Hayes 37:07
Yeah, someone I mean, you had quite a great response in comedy festival, just past you've got quite a lot of great word of mouth, from what I was seeing on the socials actually didn't get to see your show, because I was working on four other shows and was terrified of getting sick in all states. But yeah, I think you're quite right. And we even found that within like, kind of the MILKE standpoint, like we marketed as much as we could, but it was also specifically this year, was a lot more about word of mouth and kind of friends convincing other people to see the shows because I think people were just a lot risk more risk averse than just going and like going on a random punt to see a show.
Anna Piper Scott 37:45
But this wasn't just by my most recent show, this has been like a trend I've noticed. With my work, even prior to the pandemic, and, and that kind of like weariness about going out just that I would just struggle to get those upfront sales compared to other people I know who were better producers. And I would get those ticket sales on the back end. So it's still an I've been very profitable and successful and having a great time, but just me going like, Okay, well, how do I get those people in at the start of a show? And how do I get like a bigger number for the opening night, so that those people spread more word of mouth? You know, it's just me learning a lot easier, a lot better how to be good on stage, then I have been able to learn it off stage.
Patrick Hayes 38:27
Hmm. Yeah, I think it's definitely it's definitely a thing that I've seen. And I don't know if there is actually, you know, I should have a caveat, which I should have said earlier, like, we're not going to fix the art sector or suddenly have any magical solutions for a lot of these problems in this conversation. But one of the main points of this kind of conversation is just, I guess, solidarity across for art sector workers to kind of connect and go, Oh, I'm feeling similar. I'm experiencing similar things. Because often, especially in the producer worlds, we find ourselves a bit siloed from each other in weird ways. And that's kind of one of the reasons that this podcast is hopefully going to exist, we're gonna get we're gonna go from the macro into the micro a little bit. Now, what are some of the moments that you've been really proud of your producing skills? We've talked about shortcomings, but have there been any moments have been like, yeah, I've smashed that.
Anna Piper Scott 39:19
It's when you're self producing, it's kind of hard to delineate those successes from each other to kind of go you know, I sold out this show or I sold out by sold more tickets that season, the last season or you know, someone says, that are really special to me, after showing and you are like, is that a function of me putting on a good show? Or is that a function of me being a good producer and getting people to come to the show? It's like, for instance, when I did my last show at Adelaide Fringe, it was really special to me, the number of Trans people who came to the show, it was probably like the biggest Trans attendance I've had across all the seasons of that show. And it was one of the only times I've done the show in a venue that wasn't licenced, which meant that teenagers came to the show, and I had Trans teens with their parents, you know, beautiful non binary kids who were like 13, 14 had they/them pronouns, their parents supporting and like, I feel really proud of that moment, and that those people were able to see someone like me on stage and feel moved, and wherever they laugh and forget about their problems for a while. I don't know if that's a function of me being a performer, or if that's a function of me, being a producer. And, you know, if I had a separate producer for that show, I would want them to be as proud as I was, in that moment, you know, I wouldn't, you know, felt like, Oh, my God, I feel so proud that all these Trans teens came to the show, I wouldn't have this feeling of like , well that's what I did as a performer, you are not involved in that. But they're so intertwined, that it's really hard to separate those moments. And I can't really think of moments where I was proud of myself just as a producer, like the one I'm, I'm looking forward to where I think I feel like I will be proud as a performer, it's a show I have been, I will be proud as a producer, rather. It says the show I've been trying to put on for a while, it got cancelled a couple times, because of lock downs and stuff like that. But it's a show I was putting together called T4T, where it was an all trans showcase, specifically for an all Trans audience. And the whole idea was just kind of like everyone who's making money on the show, apart from maybe the venue is Trans. And everyone working on shows Trans and everyone's been performing and so the entire audience is Trans, because I feel like a lot of Trans performers have to like stop and explain words to Cis people. Like, for instance, the word Cis. And that was really proud. And like the that was felt like an idea I came up with as a producer, that was me going, I have an idea of a show, I want to see, and I'm gonna make it happen. And my performance as a host was very secondary to it, and still is. And it was more like, I want to see this show happen, I'm able to make it happen. And once I announced, since I was promoting it, every time I announced to it's sold out very quickly, the demand for it was high. And that felt really proud of the producer of me recognising not just a demand in an audience but a need, and finding a way to facilitate that. That's the kind of stuff that I think would make me proud if I was like, if I if I started heading more into being a producer, kind of like a band performance would be not just putting on good shows, but recognising it and needing an audience, you know, a need that only art can fill and providing that for them.
Patrick Hayes 42:36
Also, I'll just say for our listeners, if you're expecting us to explain what Cis is you can just Google it. I'm not actually, in this day and age, you're in the arts, you probably should know that term. I'm sorry. But on the flip side of that, and kind of like solidarity, we're also asking the question of what is a mistake that you made as a producer, because I think a lot of us have these kind of marks of shame, I'll put in air quotes as well. But it's also just like as a learning experience, because no one really teaches us how to produce we just have to kind of stumble our way through it. We've all had these kinds of experiences. Have you got one that kind of comes to mind?
Anna Piper Scott 43:14
I don't know if I can really think of a, like, major giant mistake of just kind of like, you know, well I set the venue on fire. It's, I think, more kind of gradual realisations that I'd been doing things wrong for a long time. You know, kind of more that like embarrassing thing of, you know, when you find out you've been using a word wrong your entire life that kind of like, oh my god, I'm so embarrassed. I think the big thing I learned that I wish I'd learned a lot earlier is every time I'm doing a show or a festival, or a season or something like that is having a very clear idea of why I'm doing it. Because I think a lot of people have this idea of just I'm gonna put on Show and I want it to go well. They don't define what going well looks like and like is going well selling a lot of tickets; is going well making a lot of money is going well getting good reviews is going well developing a work that you can tell are going well having a lot of industry people see it, when agents come and see it like there's so many different measures of success especially people like doing a show for the first time especially like self producing for the first time. It's just like, if you want to just do the festival because you just want to learn how to do it. That's great. But you need to understand that that's what you're measuring your success by and you will ruin yourself if like you don't know that because you'll be going through a festival being like everyone's getting these great reviews and I'm not getting reviews. Everyone's doing this and you know, people are selling so much more tickets than I am. Well, was that your goal? Because you would have been able to meet it if you knew it ahead of time and you're aiming for it. But if your goal is to just do the festival then why are you criticising yourself for poor ticket sales when you will never aiming for that, why are you criticising yourself for not getting reviews, if your goal was to develop the work, there's so many things you can get out of doing a show. And they're not all just profit, sometimes they are. But for me, for instance, I'm now like when I'm doing a show, I'm planning it as like a multi season thing. So my most recent show, such an inspiration debuted at Melbourne Comedy Festival this year. But the goal would that was to put on a new work that I hadn't put on, it was me being ambitious with what I was trying to do on stage and how I'd written the show. And it was me, trying to make sure it worked . Like that season, at Melbourne Comedy Festival was effectively a development season, the goal wasn't to make money, the goal wasn't necessarily to get great reviews, I didn't put my focus into that my goal was to focus on the work itself, and focus on getting enough audience members so that I could tell if the show was working. And now that I've done that the goal for the next two festivals is to build hype and buzz, you know, try and get some reviews for a show that I now know works. And the goal for next year's festivals is to make money, using that combination of having a development season to prove it works and having some seasons that built hype. And those two things together mean that I can now go really confidently next year with a show that works really well and has a bunch of hype behind it, and make money and profit and have it be a low ticket sales. And I think if I just kind of go on like I hope it goes well, every time, that would have been a really bad strategy. It's just kind of like every time you're doing a show, like what is the goal? What does success look like, for this show, for this season, at this festival.
Patrick Hayes 46:42
I think that's a really brilliant point like MILKE as a company, when we kind of do like producing bootcamps, we talk about unknowing your why, which is a similar basic moment of that like kind of going, you need to kind of understand what you're doing, why you're doing it. And then I think that's another point of like, why a producer is so great, because producers often are able to kind of draw people back to that main mission statement when sometimes artists get close to the work, especially if you're in an emotional work or you're creating and personal stories or elements like that, it can be very easy to start losing that Why. Because it's all we're just doing it for the reviews. But then suddenly, you're seeing other artists having sellout shows and everything you're like, well, actually, this week, we just wanted to get all the reviewers in get those little stars. So when you go to Comedy Festival, all the posters have all these four or five stars on it. This isn't our make bank season and those kinds of elements. So I've definitely had a lot of those conversations with artists as well. So I think that's a great.
Anna Piper Scott 47:42
Yeah, I think it's just you know, I mean, you can have those other goals, and maybe you have multiple goals, but it's just kind of like prioritising what those goals are and how you're approaching them. Because, cause you'll never have as much time to work on it as you want. And you'll never be able to have all the success. It's I mean, some of the things are even mutually exclusive. You know, if your goal is to have a bunch of your fellow artists see the show, they're going to be coming in on artists passes and complimentary tickets, and you can't have that and also have a sellout season. They're mutually exclusive. You know, you can only have a lot of artists in your show if there are empty seats for them to fill. So it's if you're trying to do all the things is literally not possible. So it's kind of like what are my goals? How do I prioritise them, and it may be even just being like, I want to be sold out the end of the season, I want to own a lot of artists to come at the start dividing those goals. And maybe even trading a season is like two separate seasons play, I can say my biggest mistake, because I think for the first four or five years of me being in festivals, it was just me putting on a show, trying to make it good, trying to do all the things and getting some level of success. But not having everything and being really confused about why I felt bad about a show that I was proud of, and why why the show wasn't successful. And it's because I didn't know what success looked like for each of those seasons. And if you try and do all the things, you're gonna be getting like a six out of 10 on every score, you know, or five out 10 or four or 10. It'll be like, Oh, I didn't sell out. But I had like sixty percent tickets. And I didn't have all the artists come to my show, but had some and I didn't get a lot of good reviews. I got two and it would just be like disappointed on all fronts.
Patrick Hayes 49:18
Been there very much. Well, I guess like just just being aware of time and everything as well. Our closing question is normally if you could go back and give yourself one piece of advice, but to be honest, that last question kind of sounded like that. But if you had another piece of advice that you'd like to give over to a younger producer, and I say younger as in career wise, not necessarily age because you know, some people just start producing at all sorts of age, but is there a piece of advice that you'd like to give to a younger version of yourself?
Anna Piper Scott 49:48
This would cover that but this would be more like advice I'd give to someone who's thinking about producing.
Patrick Hayes 49:54
Let's do it.
Anna Piper Scott 49:56
If you're thinking about producing for someone else I would say like Go for it, there is a dearth producers, I've been hungry for good producer for years and not have not been able to find one. And if I have found one, they are too busy, you know, good producers will never hunger for work, they might hunger for money, but they will never hunger for work. So, and it's very easy to just dip your toes into it, you know, it's very easy to kind of go approach one of your favourite performers and ask if you can help. And that help may just be, you know, helping them with their posters or being an assistant on a photoshoot or something like that. And you can escalate slowly into producing, you don't have to dive in the deep end, if you're not self producing, you only have to do that if you are self producing. And what I say if anyone is considering self producing is, is if you've not done it before, start with a split show, you know, start with a split build, start with something you're producing with a friend who is also learning self produce and divide that labour and learn together and trade notes. I feel like that was maybe the other big mistake that I did early on is I was trying to do too much by myself kind of produced just an hour of only me on stage. And that would have been a lot better if it was me and one or two other performers. And it's like, hey, come see the trio doing this. And I did that later in my career. And I wish I'd done that earlier. And we should maybe start it that way.
Patrick Hayes 51:25
Yeah, yeah, I can get that. That's a great, I think that's great advice to hand on as someone who has done all of those things myself and taken on a bit too much and then felt very intimidated. But I don't think it has to be at the start like you can dip your toes in and just start with elements because I think even artists, if you are looking at becoming a producer, those little bits are still so much off an artists who self produced things play that there's a lot of need and want within that kind of area, as you said,
Anna Piper Scott 51:56
Yeah, I mean, maybe maybe the advice is if there's good producers out there, talk to me because I don't want to do it anymore. I just want to be on stage
Patrick Hayes 52:04
You have heard it here first one out first because Anna has been talking about a quite religiously, but yes, producers reach out and I said the hype is now this is coming out in August so you might not be able to talk about your Melbourne Fringe show yet
Anna Piper Scott 52:19
Keep your eye on social media channels I will be announcing a couple of things and Melbourne Fringe and I am doing Sydney fringe as one of their headline shows already on sale for that right now as we're recording so,
Patrick Hayes 52:31
and listeners, what we'll be doing is we'll just have all the links for all these things in the show notes. So I'm gonna get those off Anna and then just go through and click those there just to save anyone trying to type things out. Thank you so much for your time.
Anna Piper Scott 52:43
Yeah, thank you for having me. It was really fun.
Patrick Hayes 52:47
Awesome.Thanks, listeners and looking forward to catching you next time.
Laura Milke Garner 52:51
Hey, thanks for listening to the podcast. MILKE is your go to for getting your show to the stage. We run industry leading courses and workshops for independent artists and producers covering everything you want to know about producing his show. Want to find out more, head to our website Milke.com.au That's Milke.com.au
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
