Laura Milke Garner 0:00
You're listening to a MILKE podcast, we acknowledge the traditional owners of the land of which we operate the Wurundjeri people of the Kulin nation, and with respect to where our collaborators guests and listeners are. We extend our acknowledgement to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander elders past and present.
Patrick Hayes 0:19
Hello, my name is Patrick Hayes, and this is producers in conversation. This podcast is all about a space for producers to discuss, share triumphs, experiences and difficulties as we explore the ever elusive question what is a producer? Anyway? I've been in this industry for about 10 years now and I'm still not sure I know the answer. Today I am joined by executive producer and CO CEO of Back to Back theatre Tim Stitz, as we discuss international touring, the benefits of diverse funding streams and also Tim's journey through the emerging scene of Melbourne. Tim, would you like to introduce yourself to our guests?
Tim Stitz 1:00
Hello, everyone. My name is Tim states, my pronouns are he him and I'm a sis white person. And I oh gosh let's go back to the very start. I was born on darug land up in what is now sort of the northern suburbs of Sydney. I've lived most of my life on Wurundjeri country down in Melbourne. And I started off my professional career in the arts coming out of doing a huge amount of Student Theatre at Melbourne University. I didn't study theatre, I did a commerce degree and an arts degree. And you know, arts, humanities and languages really, as opposed to creative arts. And then I did heaps and heaps of performing at university, probably more than my actual study. But that was, you know, an apprenticeship of sorts, and I didn't as an actor go to drama school necessarily, but I did sort of an apprenticeship at La MaMa, like a lot of people do. And I'm closing the door here actually. And because my current job is that I'm the executive producer and Back to Back and Back to Back Theatre. I'll talk about them more detail if you'd like later. Yeah, so I'm on the right at the moment. And I love having that window open when you're in a hotel or somewhere staying on the other side of the world or anywhere really because it just gets natural air and you hear the bells ringing or the construction and then yeah, just it's reality. So came back to Yeah, I did study at Melbourne Uni I did this apprenticeship at La MaMa did a tonne of shows was making my own work was acting and other people's shows learnt my craft that way, I guess in terms of performing dramaturgy making, but also I was doing probably a huge amount like all independent artists a huge amount of self producing. And I got to the point where I was loving creating my own work in the theatre and I created a piece called like Beckman beekeeper and that toured a bit in Australia and was on the syllabus and got published and that kind of thing. But I was finding it pretty soul destroying and tough it's tough being an actor and you have to be constantly in that process of getting jobs or rejection of work in between mediums in terms of film and television, and theatre loving and finding theatre extremely rewarding, or at least I did. And I found some film and television extremely rewarding. But then a lot of it you know, you do your TV, commercial or whatever. And whilst the money is extraordinary and fantastic. That was effectively subsidising all of my independent theatre work, which was you know, greatly loss making. Occasionally you get like a little honorary Co Op slit, which delightful.
Patrick Hayes 3:40
Gosh, honestly, like, yeah, acting seems like one of the most it Yeah, I I wasn't ever really an actor, but I did do like a I applied for like, you know, the NIDAs, the WAAPAs, when I was kind of graduating, and because I was, you know, I was in their high school musical and had that dream of moving forward. And I had the most soul detroying, like crushing experience of an audition just once and I went, I don't know, if I could actually do this. I think I had to do two songs just to get into the course. And I got halfway through my first song, and they said, You are killing that song for me, please move on to the next one. And obviously, I did terribly after doing that first, but you know, nine years ago, I can laugh about that. But yes, I have an immediate respect for artists who have to like especially actors in that kind of auditioning spectrum because obviously we work in like very artistic fluid kind of spaces where artists and actors are sometimes very different kind of roles where there's like the fulfilling the actor audition, versus artists to kind of collaborative, collaboratively make that work and kind of go from there. But um, yeah, you've had quite a really big journey because then because when we met you were still working at Chamber Made from memory.
Tim Stitz 4:59
I think it's right. And that's, um, I'd, alongside my performing in theatre making, I was also part of Melbourne playback theatre company for a period of time, which was a great professional development and life experience in terms of fantastic people. But also just constantly the way that works is you we did rehearsals every week, and we did gigs in schools, in corporate environments, and community settings all around improvisational kind of playback for kind of form Forum theatre. And it just was excellent training. So I was doing that and performing alongside doing some part time work at a university, and in research projects that are three such projects in theatre and, and education. And I suppose I was I was doing a lot of admin and project management, and I had a could see that I had some skills. And I was being told, are you really good at this? Maybe you should think about, you know, would other would you want to do this full time. And I think as the acting and whatnot was feeling a little bit harder, I was like, yeah, maybe, for me, the most important thing about being in the arts is feeling like you're part of contributing to the creation of something new that can have that amazing intrinsic experience that I've experienced in the arts, and seeing work and experiencing work so much, doesn't always happen. But we quest after it constantly. And I guess I wanted to be part of that. I also just love working with people in collaboration. And I draw energy from that. And that's what led me to being a producer, I saw the role of Chamber Made come up to the executive producer role, and turn them it's a really long standing small company, it based in Melbourne and North Melbourne. And I went for the role and I got it and then had a you know, baptism of fire, learning how to be a producer in that setting and a small company with funding very very tight, going after project money going up to philanthropic trying to get opportunities, I had the great fortune of working with David Young, who's the Artistic Director at that time, and really was taking the company back from the edge really, it was almost it almost was wound up and finished at the loss of funding, but it was a great experience. And I just wanted to attend from that experience. Yeah, what set me on the path to where I currently am.
Patrick Hayes 7:17
Look, I think, you know, we'll probably talk about a little bit later. You know, I think most producers I know, I think the Trial by Fire is the way that we end up in the role just because we don't as as we're discovering in these conversations, Laura and I has no simple 10 steps to making a show, or a project or anything like that. And even if there was, every project is different, every situation is different. You know, we've had multiple ways of fluctuating and rug being ripped out from under us and all those kinds of elements. But looking looking at it, then I guess, like the first question I'd like to ask is with becoming a producer, like what is your definition of the role of producer?
Tim Stitz 8:02
In a very simple way, I think producers help make things happen. And it might sound glib, but that's what I come down to pretty much in every day of my job. And my own practice as a producer is how can I enable artists in particular, but everyone working alongside that every kind of production collaborator, artistic collaborator, technician, front of house, hospitality bar person, how do we make this happen together, and be a really amazing experience? Or someone who's coming to watch our show, or our experience or our exhibition, whatever it is, so that people can be primed to receive this expression from either a single artist or a series of artists that have worked together on a project?
Patrick Hayes 8:55
Yeah, I think that's a really like encapsulating concept. And I think that's kind of in the last few episodes that we've done and kind of idea of, yeah, we were the ones that kind of, were meant to adjust and react to these unpredictable little things that happen. But that's kind of why our role is a bit more fluid. In that sense. It's because sometimes, you know, I don't wake up and go, I need to know about liquor licencing in venues because that's not something I needed to know until suddenly I have an event that I need to know exactly all the different legal requirements of liquor licencing the one that I'm struggling with at the moment is US visas and trying to understand all of that, and I literally wasted, not wasted, learned and I'm doing this in air quotes because I'm clearly annoyed and frustrated with it. But like did four or five hours of research into the multitude of contracts of the legalities of visas for America and it is a doozy. I will never complain about the Australia visa process again for artists ever again.
Tim Stitz 10:00
Yeah, I haven't had direct experience in the US visa, I've only been supporting and watching members of our team do it. And it's, yeah, it's gruelling.
Patrick Hayes 10:09
It is a big a big time. Now you kind of gave us a journey of your life going in through like your acting moving on through and kind of like La MaMa, which for any of our listeners who are not from Melbourne, that's a very, like sector staple, where a lot of arts workers have kind of been fostered, grown, mentored, there was an awful fire a few years ago, weirdly, like just after I arrived in Melbourne, because I remember being not shocked as it because like, I've got other venues that I connect with it, but everyone was just like, very much impacted by La MaMa burning down and I was just like, I've arrived in two weeks. I'm not really sure what La Mama is. But definitely one of those every every city has a La Mama like has a funnelling nurturing growth point where everyone I think has like a very special. Like, for me, it was Metro arts and Brisbane, that was kind of the one that existed in that space. For anyone else in I'm sure there's others. But yeah,
Tim Stitz 11:03
I would I would say that as well. Like, what did you did with the Metro? Or did you? Was there a student theatre group that you that you were part of? I mean,
Patrick Hayes 11:13
well, like technically for the school Festival of Australian Students Theatre, which I was the one of my first ever festivals I ran, which was that and then Vena Cava, which was the QUT Student Theatre Company. But yeah, Metro arts was definitely the, that's what we were aiming for it was Metro and then you do anything at Metro and then go around the Brisbane ecosystem has a lot less venues and festivals happening in Melbourne, which seems to have an event every other week, when we can have events, which is great, but with that kind of trajectory. So like why why did you feel like you became a producer. In that sense?
Tim Stitz 11:52
I think it's that thing of trying to understand how I could contribute how I could be part of the world be part of this community that we're in. And what you were just saying before is I can just reflect in that moment, I can think of the communities and the groups that I've been involved with, and you know, through immense privilege, like I, you know, was given drama classes, and then was able to go to a drama extracurricular thing at whilst I was at school, and I did school drama, and then you know, getting into university, that's still a huge privilege in our country. But I was able to do Student Theatre and I was able to find places like St. Martin's, which sort of whilst at uni, and then transitioning into the sector was extremely helpful in terms of being an emerging artist and a young person who is, you know, grappling with identity, sexuality, a number of sort of things going, where do I fit, who, where am I people, and along the way, you find those communities and the mama then became that place, you didn't have theatre whilst I was at Melbourne Uni. And then you find, you know, you go into professional settings, like Chamber Made. And that, for a period of time I was there for a bit over seven years, was a hugely important professional learning experience. But it was also just the people in that time, I count as some of the closest and best people I've ever had the opportunity and great privilege of getting to know. And then of course, you start interacting with people such as yourself in. In other contexts, like whether it's a festival or presenters or you meet artists, you have your mind blown by what's possible, you'd be then go into other parts of Australia sector, you go into other parts of international communities and through Chamber Made had a great experience of beginning to understand like the ATM network, which is an international contemporary performance or theatre network, which is not quite a market, but it's I got funded a couple of times to go with Chamber Made just to get my bearings and begin to meet people particularly in that Chamber Made space, which is around music and sound and performance. But I just I just think, for me producing is envy is in that sort of existential space or intersect is that the word if, in fact, the inter sensual, think about the role of the word wrong, it is the between it's, you're not always the clear cut job. Like you're an actor, you're on stage. You're the director, you're the production manager, you're the stage manager. It requires you to catch a lot of the things that fall between those
Patrick Hayes 14:26
Pulling, pulling on my drama degree, which I probably have used about three times in my entire career. In the post dramatic sense, we've been calling that liminal space, and liminal the in between the transitional but not quite transitioned kind of space, which I think is a it is like a very place where I feel like I'm in a producer, where, especially for independent producers, you're often not almost a whole creative team in one person as well. Kind of, you know, marketer, sometimes you know, Director dramaturg outside eye, producer a stage manager sometimes just the, you know, artists plus one person. And yeah, it's a really interesting space to be with, with that in mind
Tim Stitz 15:11
into interstitial space that and what lies between blood vessels and cells and provides the fluid and structural environment surrounding those cells.
Patrick Hayes 15:20
What did we both forget that word? I mean, we must use it every day. I'm looking forward to future Patrick looking at the captions for that and trying to figure out how to spell that specific word. So, good luck future Patrick? Yeah, but I think that is like a real in some of the other conversations I've also talked about. For me sometimes producer exists that in between, also, I guess I kind of the more extremes, like in between artistic and logistic, like kind of in that space of having to talk to the artists, but then also having to have that realistic, pragmatic look of what is happening and kind of interpreting what the artist says to then tell the tech teams at certain venues or festivals, exactly what we need to have set up and all of those points. So yeah, I think that's a really good encapsulation of that feeling sometimes of being the in between person, or entered into, I can't even remember exactly how to say the word.
Tim Stitz 16:20
It's like, it's interstitial to interstitial,
Patrick Hayes 16:23
interstitial. With that in mind in that interstitial space, what was the moment where you felt like a producer? Was it like a penny drop moment? Was there a day that you were like, Yes, I now know exactly what I'm doing. Thank you, everyone.
Tim Stitz 16:39
I don't know if I don't feel like I've ever had a day where I feel like I know exactly what I'm doing. Maybe the very day I retire, I might go right. I'm retiring today. I know what that is. But um, you know, will we ever retire? Will I ever retire? Big existential question. But I think there was a moment, actually, and this is when I'd started working with David Young. And it was on this project called the Minotaur trilogy, very experimental, controversial work in three parts. And it was programmed as part of the Melbourne festival in I think 2012. And at the Melbourne recital centre. And I'd been on tour with Part one, when not long started with the company. But it was actually David turning to me saying I've never had this. I've never had someone step in and effectively I was the delivery producer. He'd done a lot of the creative producing and teeing up for presenters, although I think I was part of the conversation with the festival. But he had been the creative producer and the creator of the work with the light, Margaret Cameron and a number of amazing collaborators on that piece. But he said, You have given me the opportunity in me being a delivery producer of me just focusing on the work. So I don't need to have this split brain, which we always have, to some extent, you know, even an artist is going I'm making the work art, but who needs to see it? Is it someone in my network, a mentor, a family member, a fellow artist, too, I want to see it, the producers role is doing that, you know, even bigger for all the other subsets in groups like who is the festivals? Who are the stakeholders there? Who are the audience coming to see it? Who are our donors, who are, you know, I don't think David's mind never really switched off from that. But he, I felt, we both felt it, I felt like oh, okay, I see where I can step in here and support you and this team. And it was, you know, a huge learning experience and very intense. But it was hugely rewarding to go through that process. And I did, I felt like a producer in that moment.
Patrick Hayes 18:40
That's awesome. Well, as we kind of mentioned, we've known each other for about five years now. But you met me as coordinator at APAM, which was like one of the most, I think I was starting to feel in that kind of producing spectrum. But it was the most intimidating space to kind of come into with as you talk like stakeholder management, like that was a pure Arts Market conference of arts, organisers and producers, which I think producing for producers is the most terrifying thing I've ever done in my life. But also that's why you have the team that kind of could break up where my artistic director version of that was like Zohar, who is amazing and huge shout out to zohore if you're listening, and then I was there kind of just dealing with all the like, I guess customer service level producing of like the everyday little fires that I was trying to put out, but it's useful skills. And yeah, it's a really sometimes you need that, that separation of, especially with state some of the high high stakeholders, which sometimes working in that kind of high art form. Where you do exist there. There are lots of funders and very precious is probably the wrong word, but very high stakes stakeholders where they have a lot invested in the project and very strong opinions,
Tim Stitz 19:53
but this is the thing about producing and maybe it is also a hallmark of working in the small to medium Companies are an independent environment is that you have the full spectrum of meeting with dignitaries, politicians. And then on the minutes or hours later, you are doing something extremely meanial like breaking boxes up or cleaning classes. You know, in terms of hospitality. We've got an event. Let's just all hands on deck. Yeah, we had a joke at chambermaid. It's like, oh, what's the CEO doing today, and like, There's pictures of me, trying to compact all the boxes into the recycling bin. And then, you know, there's like on in here, Tim meets the minister and talks about what the company is doing and advocating for the work of our amazing artists. So that to me is is the is the beautiful spectrum of producing. And I think it's a like a, what every job is, is a professional problem solver. But I think a lot of what happens when you're just what you said about being a coordinator APM is you can set up all the delivery and the schedule, and it's like a train, we all know we're moving towards an event or we're moving towards an opening night. But then it's just being right, what more I can't do much more apart from let this just keep rolling, and be prepared to catch and foresee problems as they come up and do it with grace and humility. And make sure everyone is looked after. In that process.
Patrick Hayes 21:25
In the weirdest possible way. I've always found those moments, the most enjoyable part of my job, especially working within a lot of festival delivery. I used to call it like it was the down of the roller coaster like it was the it was the drop, which is like terrifying, exciting, everything. But it also gave you that agency. Sometimes when you're planning something organising, you get really bogged down with like conversations, or should I should I do this? Should I not? And I think when you're in delivery mode, you start getting more into instinctual brain where it's suddenly going yes, no, that one move forward fix the problem. Is that fix is that on fire? No, it's not great. Moving on. Like it was just it's a real? Yeah, it's a it's unless you've really done it, it's I guess it's really hard for me to put into words, but it's that moving out of them out of your mind, almost into the body of a producer at that point. And you're just like, acting on impulse. But it's my favourite time, I think, what what are the core skills that you think a producer needs with that kind of moment? Or do you even have any that you know of?
Tim Stitz 22:31
I have some skills. There's a lot of skills out there, but you know, I'm gonna focus on the positive, Patrick. Yes, do I think as a producer, you need foresight , I think you need moase and lateral thinking, flexibility. I think you also need to put yourself in other people's shoes in some moments to go, which, you know, that's the great fortune I have been an actor and a creative filmmaker is that I come from that, and I can, I can understand how deeply nerve wracking it is to put yourself out on the new work as a writer, as a creator, and then to perform that work, whether it's not if it's not your work, then you're still holding space for that. The success of that work, and with a lot at stake, I'm trying my very best to understand when people come from more of a technical production point of view, what's at stake for them as well. Because that's not necessarily my lived experience. That it is we can't do what we do with out Amazing production collaborators, and technical collaborators. I think the other thing that I would say the key skills are for being a producer. It is yeah, that big picture alongside the attention to detail. And you need both. And there's a whole lot of euphemisms around. hold on tightly, let go lightly kind of you need to find the right moment. Like when do you go, I can't let that go. That's not going to detail. It's not how I'd like it. But it's out there in the world. We just need to let it run and roll and put it on the shit scale and go right. Is it critical for me to blow up and get really upset about this? Or is it go? You know, and there are some moments where it's like, actually, this is really critical because and I have been involved in my career as a producer quite a lot in fundraising. And I probably choose to be a producer more fundraisers than a professional fundraiser because I love the connection to art and making the work happen. And I love it. Yeah, I mean, not that fundraisers don't love artists they do they they're all doing it for the reason that they want to raise money to enable work to but um, yeah, I think I also want to be at the coalface of, of the creation of the piece. And then, you know, I like raising money so I can help spend the money and see how it's being spent where a lot of fundraisers, he go, here you go. Oh, do it.
Yes, yeah. Yeah, you hand over and then, yes,
I think it's there's a lot of that kind of up to my point was the detail of, well, there are people here who have their own desires feelings. And we do need to be careful about what we say and do, and go with our gut and our instinct around, okay, I don't want to be impersonal here. But writing that message, it's a bit impersonal, that I think a phone call needs to happen. Let's pick up the phone, instead of just Oh, it's just easier to email, like, it is easier to email. But I would say, pick up the phone, leave a message and say, I'm gonna send you an email about it. So immediately, it's a more personalised and yeah, I just think you get lots more traction, and you build much greater trust doing, working in that way.
Patrick Hayes 25:45
Yeah, I think sometimes when I talk to artists, and we talk about producers as this kind of idea that producers are the business brain of arts world, which I understand that, and I think we often do sit in that space, maybe when because we've worked in like other organisations where there's often even a more business brain orientated person, like a general manager, or those kinds of sense, but I think it is one of those skills, because we are the business people, we do make the product happen, we're there to make sure the product at the end of the day happens and exists. But it's also I think, the really good producers are the ones that kind of remember that our product, are people like, there's, it's something that can be really easily forgotten in the shuffle in the contracts, and all of the nitty gritty, you know, suddenly, people just don't forget that artists are people to or technical staff or people to all of those points like and you just have to sometimes take that moment and go, Oh, I can't have everyone working 12 hours to get this project up without a break, because that's not possible. And people are people and they need to exist, which sometimes can be a bit more, I think, harder for not hard to remember, but we don't necessarily have the same structures in place as other organisations that have more strong union input, I guess, or like those kind of elements where there's like a very strong framework that protects everyone involved. But yeah, I think that's where I like, you know, it is, it's the kind of especially, that's something that I've always tried to remember, especially like when I was working in festivals and points. It's very, a very high stress time for artists, especially in some of the more emerging festivals. I've worked in like fringe or mid summer where sometimes it's the first show or first things and yeah, without trying to sound naff, it is that empathy. I think of being a producer where you just have to go. Look, this might not be the most biggest hill to die on for me, but I understand why this person is really intense about this one point. And just remember that even though you might have to still tell them no, how are you going to do that? No, in a way that respects their passion for that point.
Tim Stitz 27:57
Yeah, totally. Yeah. And I think this is also the certainly you're touching on, you know, the experience of the pandemic thus far, and the fragility that an exhaustion that people are still contending with on a daily basis. And since starting with Back to Back, I'm, you know, executive producer of all that we do, but also, I'm the co CEO of the organisation. So ultimately, Bruce and I have responsibility for the welfare of at the moment, it's around 25 / 26 People who are in our core staff, and then it expands into tracks on projects, with contractors. And that has been the most important thing throughout this all and it always is like, you're absolutely right, we are a knowledge based people based industry, and particularly in the performing arts, where we have to ensure that people are looked after and there is empathy, even though you have to say you can't do it that way. This is the limit of the budget. This is how much you're getting paid. It's it's the end of the road, we're wrapping up the contract. Whatever the tough decisions are and conversations to have, I think you need to do it in a sensitive, empathetic way.
Patrick Hayes 29:09
Yeah, like, as you said, like, even in that fundraising environment, sometimes you don't get the grants, which is like heartbreaking for the producer that went for the grant. But then it's often the producer that then has to tell the rest of the creative team and figure out how to not send the text. It's like lol This project is over, but like, how do we actually sit down and go? Okay, so we didn't get this opportunity? Do we try to get to other opportunities? How are we feeling because it also I've had times where I've been in teams where there's been one person really pushing stuff forward, which has been the producer or like a co producer with me. And you know, sometimes the artists heart has been knocked out. They really missed out on that opportunity and it didn't happen and it's like cool. You know what pushing forward to make that project happen next month, is actually going to affect the work and the artists negatively. Let's Push, which when I was at Midsumma , that was a constant conversation with like pandemic stuff is just going, you know what? It's okay to say no, which I'm being a much bigger advocate for, with artists and producers is just go, the show doesn't always have to go on. And you know, it's not a real balance of trying to figure out when it does have to go on. And when it's okay to just be like I'm taking, we're not going to do it this year, we'll do it next year, or, actually, this project has to be put to bed, which like, I mean, as this is kind of something that we are struggling with both of us in this sense, what is one thing that you struggle with the most being a producer? And how do you manage it?
Tim Stitz 30:40
I think I was just thinking about, I did a standing and this is how we also work together in this role when I was in the the role at Arts Centre Melbourne as a creative producer, you have to do Clark's position as credit producer and continue performance and drama, theatre. And um, I think it's that thing now that again, I really was like, wanting to instead of saying yes, I'm a much more the National Theatre practice around sending offers and accepting offers and building on them and of course, morphing them if it needs to, because you don't want to stand in the way of a freight train. I, I was trying very hard at the time we did the structures of a big place like Arts Centre Melbourne of going, Okay, it's a no it's not, it's not the right work for this context, not now, come back in at this point, just being really trying to be as transparent as possible. The pandemic I think helped that because I think it forced everybody across all parts of the sector, whether you're a major a big large organisation, or infrastructure or government based organisation, to a small organisation or a single sole operator to go, this is how it is to me, you need to know this. So we can work together in an efficient way. I think the casually Yeah, I do struggle with saying no, I'm getting better. So it's a constant practice. I think the other thing is the balance of future planning and plotting versus current day to day delivery. And that's probably more in my current role as executive producer, is setting the the programme and looking really pre empting. What's next year, what's 2024? What's 2025? What's beyond that. And then also dealing with the things that come up day to day, either, you know, on tour at the moment, there's things that crop up, and I'm just aware of their things, obviously on you know, back in Australia on that as different time zone which are happening, which I need to be aware of too. Yeah, they're the the trickier things. I think, as a producer, I have also struggled with the hustle. And you talked about, you know, there are some producers that are very commercially driven, and they have to be and that's There's big money out there, if you're a big commercial producer, even if you're a smaller commercial producer, and you're producing comedy, such as wonderful producers, such as Laura, that we know of, you have to also go this is a business decision. There are business decisions here and I make business decisions back for Back to Back, because I know that you know we have a significant portion of our income is fees from touring or fees from commissions. And we have to build that, that money. We also have a fantastic investment from government have multiple layers of government, great investment from finance, traffic community as well and individuals. But I have felt at times of the producer, that kind of hustle and Chase and the competition when you're an Arts Market. And you go I hope you have meetings with what are you doing. And the thrill of, there's the thrill of the chase that I think some producers love and the thrill of the deal. And I've I think I'm much more of a natural diplomat, and I don't want to I don't want to be a walkover but at the same time, we have to have a negotiation. But I'm I don't I don't like going oh, I screwed that person out of an extra you know, 10/20 grand sucked in them, kind of thing I'm, I'm, uh, maybe that makes me not as much of a good capitalist, but that's why I'm existing in the subsidised arts organisations, community
Patrick Hayes 34:12
Look, I think we probably share that. That journey that's one of the things I definitely struggled with the most was in that kind of space. I'm much more of a you know, I'm sure there's some sort of metaphor about the bending the bending river rather than, you know, the tidal wave of force when it comes to producing and setting out multiple options, as you said, like not necessarily treating every no with a no but going, Look, this has several options that we can do to, you know, get to the same end point and this way or this way, or this way is more available to us than this more difficult way. But yeah, I I think there are that certain time especially, I found it, especially as an emerging artist. I think I got a lot better Sorry, I'm not really an artist, emerging producer, I should just say, because I'm one of those weird people who never really had an artistic practice. But it was the you know, you're working, putting all the work in to make your show happen. But then you go out for a drink after but then you are talking networking, pitching the next show, taking notes in your phone to then email someone the next day. Like it kind of becomes this thing where you work, your work and personal life, I think in that space, do crossover more intensely. But, and I respect the people who can do that. Like, I'm like you are the energy that you have is outstanding. But yeah, I definitely struggled to keep up in that space as well with that kind of gun hoeness of everything. Yeah. Yeah. So did you want to give some woowoo, you mentioned that you might want to give us some context of what Back to Back theatre was started, the episode that you want to just talk talk about what Back to Back is
Tim Stitz 35:58
was great. So Back to Back Theatre was, is was, was formed in sort of like 1987 88. It has been going for over 30 years. And it's centred around an ensemble of artists, actors and co authors who are perceived to have intellectual disabilities or newer or neurodiverse. And well, before I started with the company, I would have ranked it in, you know, one of the top five top 10 theatre companies in the world that is an extraordinary body of work. I remember the first show I saw from the company with small metal objects in 2005. And it was also worth to put the company into an international setting after a huge amount of work from the ensemble from all the artists and and practitioners involved. And the company just built off that this other company has a formidable experience and reputation nationally and internationally for touring work works of theatre. More recently, we've been exploring the screen world and this is before the pandemic descended. But it helped us that we'd already done some thinking, we made a short film with Matchbox pictures, which is also the pilot of a TV series, we then produced a film adaptation of our most recent theatre work in the pandemic, we adapted that we got some money from the Department of Social Services to do that with this really radical internship programme for for interns who experienced or have a lived experience of disability, both on camera and off camera. And the company also has a huge history in the northern suburbs of Geelong, and the Greater Geelong region. So based on Wathaurong country down there, and always have been of community and engagement with the educational schools in the area, too. So there's a lot of pathways to come in to engage with the company, we have this long standing group called theatre speed, which which come together every Wednesday, it's an experimental theatre lab, they do professional skills development, they make work. And that's often a feeder for our ensembles. So the ensemble at the moment is currently five people, it's usually up to six or seven. And so we'll probably be doing some more succession work in terms of getting some new people to join the ensemble in the future. And the company that I've been, that exists across those multiple claims of local, international, there's, it's known for its work, but I'd also say it's known to be quite an incredible example in, in the Australian Disability space in terms of it's an Australian Disability enterprise. It's we get activity and funding from the NDIS, both as an employer but also as a person as a group who run community programmes. Yeah, it's an amazing group and a privilege to be involved with. I would say that I think I was a bit burnt out from working in companies like us other small organisations like Chamber Made, I was, at the end of it as like, I want some experience of bigger company did I worked for a few places in like Arts Centre Melbourne and Creative Partnerships Australia, doing some work there. But what drew me back is being closer to the work and, and to artists, and Back to Back from on a small company. It's 25 people, it's in the context of Australia, it's a medium arts organisation. It's just coming into the national performing arts partnerships framework, which is what the majors were. So the company is a pretty it's not a small company anymore. It was I think that's the methodology for a while. So who would have thought this small company from Geelong, regional but it's based around artists with an intellectual disability has made it big on this, you know, it's, it's done that through a lot of building and hard work and tenacity. And now, you know, if about to win this extraordinary award over in Oslo in a couple of weeks. It's the international Epson Award, which some dub as thier wellin fact themselves dob it as the Nobel Prize of theatre. Very cash prize. Yeah, so awesome. I'm on the coattails of that brightness, I have to say, yeah,
Patrick Hayes 40:12
look Back to Back is an amazing company I've encountered with it. Almost as much as I've crossed paths with you in many different ways. I think the show that you're actually touring right now in Zurich was the show that was being pitched at the APAM that I was involved in, which is, once again, the rivers of our lives are crossing over. But if you if anyone hasn't looked them up, I definitely would recommend checking out Back to Back Theatre, we might even have a link on the podcast page to link to that. But um, yeah, it's an amazing, amazing company. I've programmed them myself and worked within creative development spaces. And yeah, they've they've really been a trailblazer in a lot of ways for some of those kind of more contextual places, and taking on those conversations, which we've talked about in depth before of like, not just like the small company, but just like belittling some of that kind of like condescension towards that art form. And the artists within that space, which is just not relevant. Because Back to Back always, like I think I don't think I've ever seen a Back to Back show that I haven't walked away and just felt amazed at the whole experience, which is brilliant. I just wanted to give that context, because I'm sure there will talk around Back to Back more in this kind of conversation. But keeping in mind, and I just say this for context, because this year, in the last two years, everything changes month to month. So I do just say what month we're recording in. So we're at the start of September 2022. So if there's any major life changing incidences that have happened in the next couple of months, and we're not talking about it, that's why we're not talking about it. I literally used to make that joke in the ones that I did in July. And then like massive things happened in August that tough like, monkey pox, all these things. It's like, well, this is why we're saying it even on you're on tour at the moment. But how are you tackling the current climate it like what is it like internationally?
Tim Stitz 42:04
The pandemic, it's almost in some regards, like it's not doesn't really exist anymore. In Europe. And certainly some countries like in in the UK, I was in Edinburgh, very few people are wearing masks, there's very little worry or concern for COVID, even though their numbers are still very, very high. And it's big strains on their health care system. I noticed it when I was catching a train from Brussels down to meet the team in Basel in Switzerland, we went through Germany and the synergy in Germany, they're still wearing masks on public transport. So I, we have a COVID safe plan at Back to Back and I was wearing my mask and I throw out but I felt I definitely feel much more comfortable when there are those kind of PPE and precautions in place. And really, for us, it's about obviously protecting every member of our touring party, because we don't want any of them to get sick while they're away. But it's also just to ensure the continuity of of doing, keeping the gigs going. And there's so much time and effort and work. And I know we've all had experiences of this in the last two years or more, more than two years now of of producing work and producing unpicking it. It feels like you're not succeeding, you're not doing anything. You're just constantly being shuffled and living with the great uncertainty this time. I think back to that, I mean, so tooing feels it's great to be doing touring again. It's great to be having the ensemble or just revelling performing. having a conversation with audiences again, it's what they miss the most by being locked down, kept on asking people, where do you want to go? What do you want to be doing? And we're just trying to realise that now. And that's what the company has always been about is trying to sort of realise the dreams and aspirations of the ensemble but also platforming them as the key spokespeople for the company in the work. Yeah, sure. There's still so much complexity day to day with the pandemic as a, an issue. Yeah, it's just we're initiating the private side plan where we are on every day that we're on tour. We're still doing surveillance, RAT testing. I think some people will think over here that would go what are you doing? That's ridiculous. But then we went and met a beautiful group of attendees. If I've been asked this a couple times recently, all it is there are so many other companies or examples internationally, like Back to Back and there are similar companies. But I suppose we all have our unique imprimatur and differences that we met this great ensemble called Theatre Hora in Zurich, and they are part of the Zurich theatre spectacular that we are part of at the moment, they are reviewing and responding to a number of works and recording them those responses as videos and it's up on the festival website. We do one of our community filmmaking projects, the Democratic set back in 2011, and a couple of our members were featured in it and we watched that together, a number of a couple of them are gonna come into the show that we spent two hours with them yesterday and It was just such a privilege and a joy to be with a new group of people. We didn't all speak the same language, but we, you know, introduced ourselves did some fun workshop games and icebreakers and toured their facilities and wouldn't be good to have that we should advocate for that or we should build this or but suffice to say, we'd all done our RAT testing that day as part of our normal day to day protocols. But they also said, Anyone who wants to wear a mask, of course, feel free, but also because we're workshopping, and we may not want to wear masks and not everyone can wear masks they did there. We came across all their, you know, 20 RAT tests as well. A plus, this is something reality that we're in with. We're all trying to look after each other and respect each other by, you know, as soon as you feel symptoms, you don't come to work, or you still check even if everyone's feeling good just to go. Right. Let's just do survelience testing.
Patrick Hayes 45:54
Yeah, absolutely. And like, I can also imagine, just like, you know, we're talking obviously a lot about COVID related changes in that stuff. But even as you said, like different countries have different laws, different kinds of standings. And that space, which also happens outside of like we were talking about visas before and how US visas were so much more difficult than UK, it's very interesting. I can only imagine in Europe, when you literally travel on a train to another country, and then all the different laws and all the different, like requirements would be entirely different. Have you have you felt like that was like an adjustment?
Tim Stitz 46:28
I think there's definitely a readjustment. I mean, the company is very experienced with touring, certainly much more than I was before I joined the company, I've made work overseas and, and toured and met networked quite a lot. But I haven't done heaps of, you know, touring, inverted commas. I think we're a bit rusty, we certainly like everybody coming back into this bit of whiplash, whether it's putting on shows, again, whether it's being on tour, again, whether it's being in a crowded development room, again, being around people in social settings, we're readjusting and recalibrating to what we feel we can and can't do. And I think we're back we're in the groove now, which is good. But there was yeah, like, I know that there's we had, as an example, some just visa, Switzerland, it was a question of, well, we need to get work permits. But do we need to get visas. And then the the law had changed somewhat recently that visas probably work visas weren't required. But the the work permit was the work permit is got by the festival, but the visas would be got by us. And there was this back and forward back and forward, which is quite stressful. Because we're spending, we're doing three venues in Switzerland. We just wanted to make sure that we're all aboveboard, really, and no one wants to be stopped, as you're coming in saying no, you can't. The three weeks of touring teed up that you can't come into the country. I mean, I would always go I'm sure there's a way through this. We've made a mistake here. Can't we quickly pivot that to do something and fix it? But look, that's still a very blue, sometimes optimistic. Point of view.
Patrick Hayes 48:05
Yeah, sometimes it's very useful and helpful, because sometimes things that you think are outright nose or cancellations aren't. But sometimes that optimism is also not fruitful. And then you tackle it all. But yeah, you talked a lot about funding and kind of fundraising in the past, is that like, so? Is that how you fund a lot of your projects? Like at the moment, I know, you talked around the multi tiered funding that Back to Back gets, and that a wonderful Nobel Prize of theatre that they're about to receive. But is that the main way that you fund projects that you've worked on is through grants? Or is it literally like that philanthropy focus that you're kind of mentioning before?
Tim Stitz 48:50
It's It's diverse income streams, like it is for most arts organisation, if you are seem to be just surviving on government grants, that is a really risky, tenuous And arguably, non sustainable way to work. So Back to Back we yeah, we do have a good sort of percentage of government funding, which with COVID had increased a bit because of things like job keeper and other stimulus packages from the state government, for instance, that usually our government subsidy is around 40, 35 to 40% at Back to Back and then we have to find other funding to support the organisation and it's through fees that we received when we tour it is philanthropic grants, it is private donations, all of that ultimate support from the NDIS to which is you could have said government funding and it is but it's actually about enabling it's different to arts funding to pure arts funding, and that's we're Back to Back does have you know, there's it's creates greater complexity. Absolutely. But we are able to draw on multiple government funding sources like the NDIS plus then we can go to the Australia Council through, you know, the federal government through the Australia Council. That's what we get.
Patrick Hayes 50:04
Yeah, it can be one of those really, I guess, useful ways of trying to get other different sources of funding in that kind of sense. Like I've definitely worked on projects where we've been eligible for NDI NDIS funding through like artists participation. But yeah, it can sometimes be that harsh moment in some of those larger organisations where because you get a grant for one specific support, you don't you can't access other streams of funding as well. And that can be like a double edged sword and all those kinds of elements. But yeah, time but multitiered as you said, it's probably like diverse funding is one of the most stable ways moving forward. Like obviously, there's those big cuts like a about a year or two ago, which some organisations didn't survive that because they were in a place where they existed solely on a funding bodies. And when the river dries up, it drives up. I'm using a lot of water metaphors, these this episode, but it's, look, I'm from Brisbane, we live like beaches everywhere, which sometimes I'm not really a beach person, but I do every so often get the real craving for Brisbane beach. And I only say that because I know everyone will be like, No, but has beaches go to the Melbourne beach. But Brisbane beaches are different. I won't say better, because I would don't want the hate. But I will say they are different. Yeah. With with. So with that in mind, like so does Back to Back as well. Like do you have a team that helps support you in those funding applications now, instead of like being the sole flagbearer of the fundraising, I guess?
Tim Stitz 51:33
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. So this is what I mean Back to Back has built up that a team to support you know, writing grants, both government grants, philanthropic grants, we have someone who works explicitly on private giving and donations, and that's around sort of giving circle, high net worth individuals who are giving larger portions of money right down to people who give an annual donation of 50 bucks, you know, it's all of it's important, all of that is critical to how we work. So I mean, that's where a company like ours is very privileged to have that level of support and be able to staff it in that way. I mean, I still think at times, we don't have as much capacity as we'd like to fulfil the opportunities and ambitions for the company. So it's always about finding the right equilibrium for that. Then there's also a lot of I mean, I've worked in much smaller companies where there's the equivalent full time of two and a half people like Chamber Made where I was writing the grants for government, I was doing the philanthropic and I was the sort of one man band or getting support from the team that ultimately responsible for getting that money and within Project money or core funding. It all of its critical and important, and then you know, have garnering the presenter fees from being in festivals or working with venues, that kind of thing. It's all critical. But I think I mean, Back to Back, has now this, this more very solid base, because we've joined the National performing arts partnerships framework, and there's eight new entrants to that group. So and, you know, groups such as Gryphon Artback NT, Windmill, ilbijerri, Dance North and Terrapin, they've got all of them. Marrugeku is the other one. And there are a bunch of small to medium companies that are just increasing intersectional representation across our sector, but it's gonna give us sort of more solid bedrock funding, but also surance that we have at least eight years funding. That is, at times I know kind of really hard to hear, because other companies are still you know, every four years or every, whatever the cycle is having to go for their multi year funding, whether it's local government, state or federal. And I would just say, We also do our lot trying to advocate for those in this other small parts, the small to medium sector, those the independent sector with project funds, like our company would would not exist without the huge community, like inner sanctum but also wider community of artists that we work with who are collaborators, creatives that take workshops. And that's across 30 years, like if we when we think about and when we had caused to reflect on this recently winning this big award. It's like, there are just so many artists that who are independent artists, often freelancers who don't work with any fixed company that go between all these different majors, large companies, small companies, the opera all the way down to, you know, self funded projects or, you know, very small funding, like from Creative Victoria that just fund that one project from where to go. We wouldn't exist without that community. We have to say they have to be supported and they have to be respected in terms of just think of things like CPI increases for small companies, because often that's been frozen in funding cuts economy, you know, economy, dividends or that kind of economic rationalisation it's kind of like, but ultimately you are progressively defunding, or reducing funding of companies. So we need to set in setting the whole sector to for success, we need to be having better support structures in there in funding.
Patrick Hayes 51:33
Yeah, absolutely. Just being aware of time my mom Move on, move on to the next question, because I'm sure we could talk around funding for the rest of the whole podcast series. This is a question I just like to throw in for producers and self producing artists as well is like why do you think producers are essential to the art sector? Or are they essential to the art sector?
Tim Stitz 55:52
I think, I think the practice of producing is absolutely essential to the art sector, or parts of it, particularly the performing arts sector, I'd say you just you need it. And even if you don't have a producer in name, you I would wager you're doing your own self producing. So whether you're working as a production manager, stage manager, author, Creative Director, on a small to medium or a small colour project, you're doing a huge amount of self producing. So I think that's where producers do have a role. And I think it's about ensuring that role is not siloed or too fixed in people's minds, because it's about stepping in where it's needed for projects or running organisations, because that's what producers can do. And they can really help empower artists and power collaborators at all levels, to do their best work.
Patrick Hayes 56:48
Look, I honestly have nothing to add, really, that kind of sounds like a great encapsulation and advocacy for our roles. Something that we kind of do this as the last week we're getting into like, the more personal now we're going from larger arts sector at large conversations down into like, more specifically you when it comes to producing Is there a moment that you are the most proudest of like what is like a big achievement that you could think of?
Tim Stitz 57:16
No, but when you sent through some questions, I was like, I'm just gonna answer these questions. But I did think about this one, and one came into my mind, but there's two examples. One was a workout of the Chamber Madecalled Between Eight & Nine. And it was a cross cultural project between Chamber Made in Melbourne, Victoria and a bunch of artists and institutions in Chengdu in Sichuan and China. And that's came out in a very personal interest of mine to work more and collaborate in China because I studied Chinese and Chinese history and felt like I have very strong feelings that us as a sector should be engaging with our region, as opposed to always only looking to you know, Europe or North America as, as the places for our work to exist and to collaborate with. It's a very kind of old school colonial idea. I think that I like the idea of what I'm passionate about the idea of collaborating in our region. Um, it was this this this project happened over multiple years got quite a lot of funding across all different levels of government through Asiatopa was a major type of project at the Melbourne Recital Centre. And I was effectively one of the lead artists and creative producer in that role on that project. And I worked with lead artists, Madeline Flynn, and Tim Humphrey, and a incredible merry band of, of other artists who performed who drempt, who were production collaborators and helped us realise quite a weird, wacky, new piece of work. And I remember distinctly sitting in the salon the Recital Centre with the work is sort of inspired by tea houses in a way because Chandra is really well known for them. And so every audience came in there, I think, eight tables or nine tables, you know, between eight and nine, and everyone sat down. There were lazy Susans, or like a design representation of lazy Susans everyone received a cup of tea, and there's this piece in the middle that is being sung by members of the company, including Carolyn Connors, and the lights are down it's just and I just remember still sends shivers up my spine remembering going, Okay, this has be pardon my french Fucking hard as a project really, really hard. It's pushed everyone to their limits at times and not being straightforward, not been easy, but in terms of developing people, to people, relationships, to developing practices, to showing audiences something completely different, and it was a divisive work not everyone loved it. But something was still soay I loved at work, it just did something completely unexpected. I felt so proud of that moment, as a producer, as the creative producer of the work, because I realised that it needed me, I was a critical part of that team, it couldn't have happened without me pushing. And, yeah, it was just a really fantastic project.
Patrick Hayes 1:00:22
It's the weird duality of those really difficult projects, sometimes where there are those intricacies and steps through because one, it is hard, or as you said, fucking hard, which I've had my plenty of those myself. But it is one of those moments where once it gets achieved, you know that you are vital in that role to make that thing happen, which is a really good feeling. Because like often, whats come up in a couple of these other conversations, it's really hard to feel that accomplishment sometimes in the arts like to have that verified, especially if you are in that more creative producing or producer or like those kinds of not as front facing roles. Yeah, but also another list of people that I also love working with in many different ways. They're very lovely, amazing humans as well, incredible things. On the flip side, one of the other things that Laura and I wanted to ask, this doesn't have to be like a big incriminating mistake or like big things in the world. But what is one of the mistakes that you feel like you made on your producer journey? I know I have a massive list, a massive list.
Tim Stitz 1:01:30
I think sometimes the mistakes that you only make once or twice where you don't put something in a budget, when you're dreaming up a budget for a project and submitting it for funding and you get there and you're like, shit, we haven't put nearly as much in for access as we thought or I didn't put the money in we should have put money in for childcare and supporting people with caring responsibilities, you know, just errors in spreadsheets, you know where you've gone? Holy shit, I didn't really go right over that and just check for sense. Like there's a problem with that formula. That sometimes you can't see it because it's behind like a funding bodies own template. And that's like, I think the other thing is just, contingency, often that something in a budget that you need to. And I know we put a lot of contingency in at the moment because there's so much uncertainty, but I often think that does buy insurance and it's then tempering. Well, something my said with the project's very expensive. And it's okay. But there is some contingency in there. Let's try and not have to use that. But I need to put it there because this is about
Patrick Hayes 1:01:30
Yep, through my I have so many rainy days where I've had to dip into my contingency funds when I've been able to get them and put them aside which have helped life The other lesson I learned, especially when you're doing government funding and reporting, when to use contingency, because sometimes I've also gotten to the end of the project, and realised I've had a chunk of money that I did not spend, which I then suddenly have to magically figure out how to spend in three days. But no, I think that's, that's good kind of standpoint. So with that in mind, because like this sometimes also feeds very well into kind of our closing segment of basically, if you could go back and give yourself one piece of advice, what advice would you give Tim?
Tim Stitz 1:03:21
I would, the advice would be never be too far away from the work. Because I think that's a times I see. And I've experienced myself getting so much in my own head. And stressing about so many things that are you know, good things to stress about or like fair enough things to stress about. But you often then forget the reasons you're doing it. And so when you go into the work, and you had that opening night experience, or you go to rehearsal, and you go, Oh, that's why I'm doing it, thinking about this all wrong, or I'm fixating on this actually, what I need to fix it is on the artists going to be in a good accommodation, that's something I haven't bought at all. Because that is sometimes the mistake you'll make booked a shit piece of accommodation. And that's going to come back to bite me because I thought it was economical and cheap. And that actually cost me a total nightmare when I'm there. I think the other thing that I have the advice would be Yeah, so don't sweat. Try not to sweat the small stuff too much and get close to the work at every opportunity. Always see the work regularly. And I think the other piece of advice is play the long game. Because everyone's trajectory is going to be different. You don't put it's just not worth comparing yourself against other people's and where they're at in their career. That also the more fundamental thing is you don't know where your colleagues friends, people that you started off your journey together where you'll end up. So one of your colleagues and closest friends could be the chair of the Australia Council in 20 years time and probably will be one of your friends. Will you know, need you in a way that you didn't expect, because you thought they were going to be a really famous Hollywood actor, but actually, they have a nervous breakdown. And they have to completely change careers, and they're going to need you to support them and say, That's okay to write and say, to walk away from this, even though you love it, and you'll always love it, and you can still have it in your life, but you need to walk away, or I think it's just you just never know where people are gonna end up. And that's about power and influence. Yeah, I think it's about just knowing and treating everyone with respect in a way as well.
Patrick Hayes 1:03:21
Yeah, I think that's, that's great advice. I think that's a long time lesson that I had to learn was the comparing to others specifically , because I also was also a bit more like my trajectory, I think, because I had quite a steep trajectory into the arts where I was like, I'm in the arts, oh, now I'm working at a major arts, marketing, networking space. And now suddenly, I know all these people that I don't, you know, normally would have taken me years to network or connect with and all these elements, but then I suddenly felt like I was not going anywhere, because I was staying in the same level for a year or two, which was ridiculous, because that's what you do in a job you stay. And then you move on. But I just kind of kept on comparing myself to these, like, even not even a real person. But these ideas of what I thought was where I was meant to be by now and what I was meant to be doing and taking on and tackling. And it really was a not a good time. So I think that's a great advice to give. And just to kind of see where things go, sometimes setbacks open up spaces that you never knew. were possible, because, you know, you wouldn't you never look in that direction, or you never talk to that friend, or sidestep and find those projects in very interesting ways.
Tim Stitz 1:06:48
And you said often, quite often, always do learn so much more out of that painful failure. Professionally, hopefully, not too many personal but you know, personal. Yeah. Is that That's, it is, everything's learning. Everything will build your resilience and character. And, yeah, it just, you may think that you've been shut out at the moment. And sometimes you are, you need to fight for your voice in that. But also, you'll find your voice and also others will help you find and platform as well. So if you do it with respect and empathy,
Patrick Hayes 1:07:22
no, I think that's a really, that's a I always cringe a little bit when and all that kind of like, you know, always find the bright side of every situation. But I think my version of that is the what what can you learn from that situation? What can you take away from it, every situation is useful in some way, shape, or form. But you know, sometimes it can feel a bit weird to be like, I'm really happy. I didn't get this grant because bright side, but going I learnt these three things about grant writing, I learned these like I need to have this stuff prepared.
Tim Stitz 1:07:56
Was with Grant always get get always get feedback, even with the grants get that as it always, is there anything that you would recommend that I'd be improved? Or why didn't it get it needs to live? If it's not, why not?
Patrick Hayes 1:08:08
Exactly. I'm also very pro on like calling up the funding body and talking to them before you're doing application and like talking the thing through because sometimes you might have misread or mis gotten the wrong end of the stick of what they are after. And then suddenly, you're like, my project is this and they go, Oh, that wouldn't be applicable because of these three reasons. And they're like, great, I saved myself 40 hours of putting together a grantapplication, read the guidelines, some some coordinator has painstakingly put those guidelines together for you read them as someone who has done that, and is still doing that to this day. Read the guidelines. And that kind of brings us towards the end of our session, Tim. So just for our listeners, I'll talk to Tim and get like any links that Tim would like to share if you want to like find out more about back to back or any of those spaces. But thank you so much for your time and for this wonderful conversation.
Tim Stitz 1:09:02
Thanks, everyone.
Patrick Hayes 1:09:04
All right. Thanks, listeners and I will catch you next time on Producers in Conversation.
Laura Milke Garner 1:09:09
Hey, thanks for listening to the podcast. MILKE is your go to for getting your show to the stage. We run industry leading courses and workshops for independent artists and producers covering everything you want to know about producing your show. Want to find out more, head to our website milky.com.au That's Milke.com.au
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
