Laura Milke Garner 0:00
You're listening to a MILKE podcast, we acknowledge the traditional owners of the land of which we operate the Wurundjeri people of the Kulin nation. And with respect to where our collaborators guests and listeners are. We extend our acknowledgement to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander elders past and present.
Patrick Hayes 0:19
Hello, my name is Patrick Hayes, and this is producers in conversation. This podcast is all about a space for producers to discuss share triumphs, experiences and difficulties as we explore the ever elusive question what is a producer? Anyway? I've been in this industry for about 10 years now and I'm still not sure I know the answer. This episode, I'm joined by Kush from Nostalgic Events and one of the cofounders of ROSS the rise of South Sudan. Today we discuss being the natural organiser in your life and how that can impact your producing and also personal life, looking at boundaries, mental health, fatigue. And also, as we've been going in all the episodes talking around producing skills, Kush, would you like to introduce yourself to the listeners before we begin?
Kuichiang “Kush” Kuiy 1:07
So it's so tricky. I've had it, it's hard to talk about yourself, well, my pronouns that go by and she her. My name is Kush for short, but my full name is Kuichiang Kuiy. I am. I was born in Australia, and on Bunurong country in Melbourne, and my parents came from South Sudan. So I'm first generations, Australia. And yeah, basically, I've lived in the southeast my whole life. And I think that's relevant for this conversation, because my producing practice has this like, centred where I live in the southeast. And I think, yeah, in the suburbs, which is interesting in itself. And yeah, so yeah, so what do I do? I, first and foremost, consider myself an artist and a creative, I suppose for the purposes of clarity, I generally go by an independent producer, which is still not that clear, because like people are still like, what's that?
Patrick Hayes 2:03
That's kind of the whole reason for the podcast. That's what we're here for. Yeah.
Kuichiang “Kush” Kuiy 2:07
So what's that? What's that been for me, I started an events company when I was like 17/18 years old. And that was called the nostalgic events. And I started off like doing personal occasions, birthday parties, like family and friends. Things like that. And then, and I just, and I started it, because I wanted to, I saw myself as being somebody that I would work for myself. And so I started around 1718. And I was like, Well, what I'm actually good at, and I was the kind of person and I am the kind of person that just like put things together. So if it's like a family birthday, or Christmas dinner, like I'm the one that's like arranging everybody inviting everybody, hre is what we're going to eat all that. So it started off in personal occasions, but I found that it wasn't all that it cracked up to be. And then an opportunity presented itself though, where my dad went to Africa, I think in like 2015 /2016. And he came back and he was just telling me about what he saw there. And he is he was a social. He's a social worker by Well, he was a social worker. So he's very much into like community development and just working with our community. And so when he went back home, he was very taken aback by the situation back home with maternal health care and children health care. So he went back to Gambella, which is in Ethiopia, which is, which has a lot of South Sudanese refugees that have left the country, so there's a big diaspora there. And I have a lot of family there. So he was there. And he was just telling me like, really, you know, it's one of those things where I was like, I can't believe people are going through this. You know, he was like, telling me about how women are giving birth and just how dire the situation is. And like, it was like one of these things for me where I was like, they don't even have that, you know, and I'll, by the way, I've never been back to Africa. Well, I've never been to Afirca, I really want to go. So I do feel a little bit removed. But long story short, he came in talk was telling me all this stuff. And he said he wanted to do something about it. And he came with this, and my dad's an amazing guy. He's like, this big picture kind of guy very much an idealist. And he's, I think he's definitely like, imparted some of that with me. So like, I want to build a hospital. And I was like, All right, cool, you know, wants to build a maternal health care clinic. And he was like, Well, how can you help me? Because then I was like, 17/18, maybe 19 At the time, and obviously I didn't know anything about that in the hospital, but I'd been doing this events thing for a while. And I reached out to my best friend and I was like, so Dad's told me this he wants to do something. Why don't we have a concert like a benefit concert? So we did that? Took a while to get Up, young and naive, to be honest, you can actually raise anything. But I think that was like the catalyst that sparked my whole career as far as like getting into the arts and producing, because I had the skill set in events. And putting on this concert, I reached out to a lot of other South Sudanese artists, people were moved by the cause, which is obviously to build this hospital. And so I just met a lot of people. And often from the first concert, I started reaching out to me, like, can you help me put on this concert? Can you help me with this? Can you help me with that? And yeah, so that's the start of it. And the rest is pretty much history. But that's how I started. And so I guess, what do I do, I work with artists, to help them bring their visions to life, and also creating opportunities for them to bring their art to the world.
Patrick Hayes 5:50
Yeah, that's a really, really beautiful start to a producing journey. And I think any, I've done a few Ray like benefit kind of focused events. And that is one of the biggest cruxes of those events is you put in a lot of effort, and then you're like, this actually didn't generate that much income, which is very sad. But I still think that kind of the sense of building that message building the community and it also has done in such a great level of platform in your own career. That's an amazing takeaway from that I was reading your like bio online and you call yourself a Creative Alchemist, I think is that the words that you'd like to use as well, which I think is a really also like a brilliant, encapsulate kind of just exactly what you went and spoke through this kind of creative meets bubbling, gathering, creating, transforming, it's, it's amazing.
Kuichiang “Kush” Kuiy 6:39
And you know, I call like, I wrote that down and like, of like, being a creative Alchemist, because to me, it was like, and I don't even know if I actually understand what alchemy is. But from my understanding of alchemy, it's this thing that you have something invaluable or seemingly invaluable that turns into gold. And I just felt like that's what we're doing with our practice, especially in the early days, like, we have no resources, barely any money, no connections, no networks, and yet, we've somehow managed to, like create these amazing experiences. And like my whole thing that I've always said, And like anything that I do, it's just always about having a good time, hey, in the process for like us as a team that are putting it together, but then of course, with the audience. So to me, that's the gold. So that's why I call myself a creative Alchemist.
Patrick Hayes 7:29
Yeah, absolutely. I think that's a great, it's a great way. I've got a lot more, I guess, Alchemy. I'm a massive geek in my spare time outside of arts producing. So I've got a lot of association with the word Alchemist. But I still think it's an amazing. Yeah.
Kuichiang “Kush” Kuiy 7:43
I actually don't know what it means.
Patrick Hayes 7:47
Yeah, it's a whole different other podcast where I'm probably divulging that stuff. But that kind of fits in this sense, like alchemy sits in this space of, yeah, it's that transformation. It's creating something like, you take something and you change it into something else, all of those kinds of points. But yeah, I think that's kind of what producers do. We have all these elements that we bring together. And then at the end, we have a product and that kind of create, like Yeah, and that journey, which I mean, kind of goes into that first question, because like, my first question of the like, conversation structure that we have is, What is your definition of a producer? So would that be like how you define what a producer is someone who can take these elements and transform them?
Kuichiang “Kush” Kuiy 8:30
This is the question that we're all asking yourself. Oh, yeah, yeah.
Patrick Hayes 8:34
We're not going to walk away with a definite answer. And we go tick, were done. But
Kuichiang “Kush” Kuiy 8:38
so that was my initial definition of it. But I have like, the more I talk to people, people like you, other colleagues and stuff, like and learn about what they define producing as, like, there's, so there's like other definitions that I think really stick with me. And one of I think, I can't remember who told me this. But she said that producing it's creating the context for a work to happen. So that really resonates with me. And I think that's definitely what I do. As in Yeah, you know, so there's that. The first part is obviously, you have all these elements, transforming and creating something. But then also, I find that this in my practice, and with the people that I'm working with, and the artists that I'm working with, so much of about is so much of it is about creating the context for it to happen. So it's being that person in the middle that connects the dots makes the conversations happen. And yeah, make creates context. So whether it's you have this piece of work or you're working with this artist that has this work, you've got to find where does this work? Where can this work live? That's another definition of her as well like finding a place for a work to live. Yeah, so there's lots of different definitions. But there's a lot the three that stick with me alchemy, creating context and where can work live?
Patrick Hayes 10:00
I think in a similar way, I've always thought of us as like in bowling, the creative bumpers. So like the artwork will always navigate itself. And you can't really always, you know, know exactly what's going to happen. But we're that have created like that structural framework that at least hopefully we hit a pin at the end of the project rather than getting a gutter ball. But yeah, I think that's a really, I think those are great definitions. And it's once again, as we've said, like, we change we're different projects require different producers, they require different things. So I think that's, that's a great point, we kind of covered why you became a producer with that amazing story of starting in that benefit concert. But was that the moment you felt like you were a producer? Or was there a moment in your career where you finally went? I'm going to call myself an independent producer now?
Kuichiang “Kush” Kuiy 10:51
Oh, there's like a different a definitive?
Patrick Hayes 10:55
I'd love to hear it.
Kuichiang “Kush” Kuiy 10:56
Yeah. So it's a story, actually. So I've done ROSS maybe once or twice. And at the time, I'd recently moved to where I live now, which is in the city of Casey, out of southeast suburbs. And like I said, my dad was a social worker, but it was my mom. So they're the kind of people that were always tapped into, like, local government, community, local community organisations, blah, blah, stuff like that. So when we moved out here, we have this amazing facility, which was fairly new at the time called Bunjil Place. And that's actually where our counsellors base but it's also an amazing arts venue, it has a gallery, a library, theatre studio, like, it's from my understanding, it's actually the only building in the country that's like it, where everything is just like in one place, including the Council offices. So when we moved here, my parents were called into a meeting at council to I think, by the arts department, yeah, would have been by the arts department. And yeah, they were just going in to talk about some of the stuff they do and blah, blah, blah. But then my mom and dad were like, oh, with the person they met, they're like, oh, maybe you should talk to like our daughters. They like more artists and stuff like this is not what we're into. So then, we met the staff from Council named Joel Evans, amazing person is actually in Western Australia now. And we started talking and he invited me to go to this information session at Bunjil place that was being hosted by TNA for the VIPI programme. And it was like the first year it was the first time any programme was going to happen. So I told Joel like, yeah, do this thing. It's called the Red South Sudan. Here's what we do, but about, I've had it once. And he was immediately interested. It was like, well, let's bring it to Bunjil place. But in the meantime, go to this information session, I think you'd find it interesting. So I went and the representative that came from TNA was a programme producer of VIPI, the person who kind of like really made it happen in a lot of ways. Like she was the centre, she was a producer. So her name is Rani Pramesti. She came to Bunjil place, I went to this information session, and she was just talking about what VIPI is, you know, it's the, by the way, for people that don't know VIPI is the Victorian independent producers initiative. It's a programme that was delivered by Theatre Network Australia, in case you don't know what TNA is, and was funded by Creative Victoria. And basically what it did was it gave a cohort of independent producers funding to work on whatever they want to work on, two days a week for a year. And then on top of that, there was obviously also like, networking sessions, and you really got to like work with this cohort of people. So it was an amazing thing. I went to this information session, I was talking to Rani telling her what I do. And I'm like, Oh, well, I don't really know if I'm a producer, like, I do this festival. I've done it once. Here's what we're trying to do. Here's what I did budget this, this, this and that. And then Rani was like, oh, yeah, like then you're a producer. And she's like, You should definitely apply. So I did first round didn't get in second round got in. But that was actually the story. long winded story of how I how I like, yeah, I never even heard the word before.
Patrick Hayes 14:06
I think that's, that's kind of one of the through lines that I'm getting a lot from these conversations is that it often takes another person kind of identifying those skills, because it isn't something that's talked about and like the start of those journeys very much like we don't you know, we all know what an actor is. We all know what though, like those roles are, but no one necessarily knows what a producer is. And even when we do as you said, we're still kind of discovering what they mean. And we're kind of this multifaceted person who has to fit into all these different roles for a different thing. But yeah, thank you for also catching all those acronyms. I think it's really great to also flag those but the VIPI is a great that is a great initiative, and I've seen many different names of amazing, like, up and comers, but also veteran producers also being supported in that in those realms. Like it's, it's an amazing resource there. You were talking about like the skills that You had certain events that kind of identified you as a producer to Rani so like, what? What are the core skills that you think a producer should have? Or needs?
Kuichiang “Kush” Kuiy 15:10
I think it's different, obviously, for everybody. But for me, I guess the kind of producers that I am, is I'm so like I said, I work pretty closely with artists, and even with the Red Sox fan festival, like I'm the producer, and my best friend, slash co founder is the artistic director. And so our roles in that are pretty clear, right? So for me, the kind of producer I am is I'm the one that's like, I'm the kind of producer that's like, I have to make sure that like we're on time and that we have enough money. So the skills that are important to my practice, you know, very, like practical things. Budgeting, yeah, music management, time management, being able to build relationships and stuff like that, like, that's obviously the most important thing, having the capacity and network and things like that. Oh, I had something else. What was it? Oh, negotiation. That's what I was gonna say too negotiation. So when I'm sort of when I'm working with JD, who's my best friend slash artistic Director of ROSS or any other artists, it's like, they're the ones that come with. Yeah, Julia will JD will tell me like, Alright, here's what I'm thinking. And like you said, it's almost like creating that structure around it, which is, okay, the structure is let's make sure that this fits within a budget, that we have the resources for it, and even for them finding the resources for it. Yeah. I don't know if I answered your question.
Patrick Hayes 16:39
I think you did. I think it was a point because like, also, you mentioned at the start, like way back at the start or 15 minutes ago, that you're the organiser part, like you are an organiser with your family friends, I am also someone that fits in that specific role where I was like always that proactive person. And really hated is a strong word, but had a lot of anxiety when it was like the family tried to organise something and then no one would take the lead to be like this is what's happening. But then I think I also I, this is a question that I haven't sent through, I just want to ask on a personal note, now that you do it in a career sense of working and kind of taking on those professional, do you get sometimes frustrated that you're still the organiser, because I have this moment where I'm like, I do this for my job. And now I'm also doing it and wrangling my family in all of my personal time. And all those points. Do you ever have that moment of? I'm using my skills all the time? And I'd like a day off?
Kuichiang “Kush” Kuiy 17:38
That's a good question. I think I flip flop between feeling frustrated and not feeling frustrated. Yeah, because I have chosen to do this for my work. And I love it, and I enjoy doing it. But then yeah, sometimes it just feels like you're never switching off. So that gets exhausting. But at the same time, like my family is my family, my life is my life and things. So like sometimes it's you know, say for example, earlier this year, there was a bunch of birthdays, and all that kind of stuff. There's a lot happening, people graduated university and stuff in my family. But at the same time I was organising the Rise of South Sudan, which was supposed to happen in April. So it was like, usually, I would be organising all the birthdays, but I didn't because I just didn't have the time or the capacity. So I was frustrated because it was like, Really, like if I don't have the time. Like it's just not gonna happen. But it hasn't. Good. And, I mean, yeah, sometimes I feel frustrated by it, but at the same time, like it is what it is, you know, if totally the time I can't do it, and if nobody else really wants to step up. This is a personal question. You're, nobody else in the family wants to step up. Whatever.
Patrick Hayes 18:56
Totally, and like, there's no right answer. Yeah.
Kuichiang “Kush” Kuiy 18:59
And, um, so personally, like in my family, we're all getting older. So like, the youngest in my I have five, four siblings as part of us. The youngest is like 19 now, so I'm also dealing with a number older. So I'm also like, dealing with letting my siblings take, like, just dealing with the fact my siblings are adults now. And I don't have to be as responsible. Yeah, like if it was, if I had if one of my siblings was turning 16 years old, and I didn't organise the sweets it's been I probably would have felt really bad. But the fact that they're turning my team is just kind of like whatever, like you can do it yourself. Yeah.
Patrick Hayes 19:39
Yeah, no, I think I think that's something that I've also resonated with because like I used to be someone who got really annoyed sometimes when I stepped back due to busyness and then suddenly things wouldn't happen. It also causes fights and that's no shade on my family or friends or anything but it's just sometimes people are organisers and sometimes people are not organisers and I think that's, I don't know, I just find it really interesting sometimes when it says the organisers become the producers, and then it's just like, we now do it all the time, and where do we get our space? But
Kuichiang “Kush” Kuiy 20:11
one more thing just to that. What I also realised was, you can, I'd love to hear your take on this as the ones that organised and like, you know, you take a step back, because you're working and stuff like that. And you feel that frustration, I think that also realise that it's not that the rest of my family doesn't care to do these things. Like it's kind of like they enjoy it. But if it doesn't happen, they're okay. So like, I was one that was like, this has to happen, like, we need to do this. And the fact that it didn't happen was because nobody else was like, what they're just like, it's cool when you do it, you know, but I don't care if it doesn't happen.
Patrick Hayes 20:48
One of my journeys, I think that I kind of went on with it was I, I'll try to be very briefly like, I think it's pretty a little bit naff, that I kind of like that idea of love languages. For me, it was point. So for me, I was like a bit, I think, organisers, I also kind of associate with this kind of like, maternal energy a little bit in my head, for some reason where I just like, that's where I fit in, in my life. And that's where people often tell me I have a strong maternal energy, all those kinds of points. But my dad, for instance, he's much more of an acts of service person, I guess. And that's was my, I used to get so angry with him because he could never just organise a thing or plan something. But I then learned about when I was 18, or so that is, as long as I asked him to do something, he would do it. Like in an instant, that was just his thing. Like, I would go, Oh, my fridge is breaking, and then he'd be around for three days trying to fix it. Like that was kind of his thing and I think that was a big switch for me where I was just like, oh, like, just because people don't organise doesn't mean they don't care. It's just, they have different priorities and different ways of showing affection, impaction, and all that kind of stuff. So it kind of helped to not have those expectations as well, because I think when when you're the organiser, and it happens with as a producer, and I've worked through it as a producer as well, there is this massive pressure, whether it's put on us, or we just put it on ourselves that we like, the same way that we just had the kind of where the structure to try to help give that context to a project of a projects not working, it can be very easy to start blaming ourselves or saying that we're not doing a good enough job as a producer. And sometimes everything's out of our control. Sometimes things will always go wrong. But yeah, it's it's one of those growth systems as well, where I think as you go along in that journey, and grow up, as you said, like suddenly you realise some people are not, you know, when you have an artist that you might have just started working with versus an artist that you're working with for like six years, you're going to approach those relationships differently. Similarly to like a 16 year old sibling to a 21 year old, like sibling, like where you're like, Oh, you've got a bit more agency now. And you're a human who can function. That's great. So yeah, I think there's a lot of parallels in those kinds of spaces. With with looking at the producer skills, what is one thing that you struggle with as a producer? And how do you manage that in your life?
Kuichiang “Kush” Kuiy 23:17
One thing?
Patrick Hayes 23:19
it could be multiple things like what it like, it's up to you is like, what are the weakness? It's a kind of question that we had laid it down but you could also kind of like what is a weakness? I guess of what you're producing because we all have them mines negot..., like negotiating. I'm not that great at that hardball. negotiation that sound producers seem to be absolutely amazing at I'm much more of a nice, cuddly producer versus a hard and fast producer. But
Kuichiang “Kush” Kuiy 23:44
so, um, I would say, just to give a bit more context behind me and my career. Um, I think, you know, before the pandemic happened, like things were kind of just like, ticking along. I'm wondering, ROSS, I was working with a few artists here and there. I honestly hadn't learnt but we hadn't done anything like, big or not even big, but like, even medium sized budget, because I hadn't actually had the time or like this. I didn't have the grant writing skills to be honest, or fundraising. So and I wasn't in VIPI yet, as well. So that's, that's actually something. So the first year of the pandemic, I was part of the VIPI programme, but I couldn't do anything, but I was at home. Like I couldn't do anything publicly. Like there wasn't outcomes. So it was like, it was a blessing in disguise because I was able to spend my time at home being paid to work on my producing practice and just spend like a solid year on career development, but also working on like, projects that would happen after this pandemic would be done, or after things opened up again. And it was also at that time where I learned how to like write grants and all pretty successful and stuff like that. And yeah, my name was getting out there a bit more, like you said. So I say that to say, during the pandemic, I saw this, like my things, like just so many opportunities came out. And it was weird because I was working on performing arts and there was no performing arts happening. But there was just a lot of work coming my way. And I felt the need to take it all on. So, you know, one thing that I struggle with to answer your question is, and then I'm learning right now, actually, how to, like, recognising and trying to, like learn about is, how do I manage workload without burning myself out? Part of it is also like a mental, I guess, trying to switch up my mental a little bit in that I things will always come my way. Like I've, I think we all have this, sometimes it's hard not to have it in freelance work, the scarcity mindset, like, you know, so many opportunities are coming up. Now. If I say yes to some unknown to others, what if there's nothing down the line, like I just better say yes to everything right now, because who knows what's gonna happen in six months, but it was, it's been really exhausting. And it really, were, it's been a rough time over the last like, nine months, because I just had too much on. So I'm learning about that. And then on top of that, I really struggle with having to maintain and manage all these relationships. I've have a pretty small circle in my life, or I don't talk to that many people on a day to day. And so just the volume of communications that's coming through all the time, was really draining. And I found myself a lot of the time just completely closing into myself. So those were two things I definitely struggle with. And I'm trying to work in trying to let work through
Patrick Hayes 26:52
I think you're taking steps because like, for any of those listeners who haven't emailed Kush, Kush has an amazing little, like out of office kind of response, like sponsored limits days and says exactly what it should do saying, I'll respond to your email in some time, like, especially as someone who's working in a bit more of a freelancer environment of like certain days and not others. I admit, like, I do that as well. I work two jobs at the moment. And yeah, I don't know if this is going to be a helpful thing. But it's a long journey with the learning how to battle that scarcity. Fear.
Kuichiang “Kush” Kuiy 27:26
Yeah.
Patrick Hayes 27:27
Because I think a lot of everyone in the arts as soon as you get into it, because the arts is a turbulent industry, like it is a space where it is turbulent. A lot of start, like a lot of emerging producers, artists, everyone, we get into that mindset where you have to say yes to absolutely everything.
Kuichiang “Kush” Kuiy 27:46
Yeah.
Patrick Hayes 27:47
And not to toot my own horn, I've been very well, like very lucky. But also, I'm a good producer who has been employed for like, seven years, I've been like doing it just jumping from festival to festival doing stuff like I've, I've proven that I can do the job. But even when I was leaving one of my jobs due to a burnout, because I had not stopped in seven years, I had literally just worked to the bone, I was struck with this immense fear of, well, now I won't have anything and How will anyone find me employable, and all these things. And it's like, it just it takes it's different. And everyone's different with their journey on that. But I think that is something to really, it's a really important process to go through. And to set those boundaries that you are setting and going I'm going to work these days and not the like these days is when I'm not going to be doing all that stuff, which even I still with two jobs, they kind of start to blend over each other constantly. And which is also a part of the arts like at the moment like everyone's a part time worker and kind of doing multiple jobs to do one full time job. But you know, two part time jobs is kind of like just over a full time job, because you're always doing a little bit more on both like it's such a dance. And yeah, I think it's something that we all will ongoingly change, which I guess we are talking around the climate right now, even in this kind of conversation. So just to set. I do this in all the episodes just to kind of give an indicator where we're about the first week of September in 2022. Here, I just say that because as the last two years have proven, everything changes. So quickly, month to month, there's always a new crisis or a new something has happened. And I don't want some people saying why aren't they talking about this major thing that happened? Because I literally said it in the first round of like three episodes that we did. And then I think like the next week, it was like monkey pox was suddenly this massive thing that was happening across the news. And I was like, okay, cool. This is what's happening. But yeah, you said like, obviously you kind of had like a interesting time and that climate of having all these opportunities come to you in the pan, pandemic but how are you dealing with the current? Slightly I know No, we're not really out of the pandemic, this kind of like, revival period. How are you tackling it?
Kuichiang “Kush” Kuiy 30:08
Well, I guess big question, um, I think, going back to just what I was saying before, you know, feeling really exhausted and stuff like that, me and JD, JD is that like I said, artistic director of ROSS, we've made a decision that, like, after we did ROSS in April, we will have, okay, we're ready to do ROSS, every two years like this, we were like, This is not sustainable. And we can't do this every year. And on top of that, we also decided earlier this year that after June, we had like a few things that we had to roll out and deliver it in the first half of this year, and we'll have in the second half of this year, we're not gonna like deliver anything. We're just gonna focus on the next ROSS, which is going to be 2024. And I obviously do my own, like I was, I work on other projects, aside from the rise of South Sudan, and sorry, can you ask the question again?
Patrick Hayes 31:14
Um, no, like, I think, uh, basically, just like, how are you finding the current climate of the arts landscape. So like, I think the kind of things we're talking around is that kind of fatigue that we're all feeling, which I think resonates a lot across everyone. I feel like everyone, I haven't spoken to win it like an energetic arts worker. In years, we're all this I in the lockdown, I kept using this metaphor of talking about like, it's that last 10 metres of a marathon where everyone is absolutely staggering, which is like putting one foot in front of the other. But we're all just like, please let us get to the finish line. But it's also this weird point where that's like, kind of coming to the end of this really intense time. But also, we're now starting another race, which is the revival point. And I think that's just this. It's a difficult space, which I think taking a step back and kind of allocating projects out a bit further, like lots of festivals and events run bi annually. And I think that's a great way of getting interest. Being able to see like this is happening, you have like some time to lead up conversations and finding funding, which often when I used to work at Midsumma, it was a like, year by year, like getting funding for that year. And it was very
Kuichiang “Kush” Kuiy 32:31
big for us. And yes, that works for a while. But JD and I were like we're ready to actually expand. And it's hard to yet, it's really hard to grow a festival when you're working on a year by year funding plan that it's because you're just focusing on delivering the next one.
Patrick Hayes 32:51
It is so hard in I've worked in a lot of festivals over my time. And it's really one of the things that I've noticed a lot of because it's this idea of most jobs, or projects you can add that are reoccurring, you do this idea of like I'm coming in, I'm doing it and then I'm going to leave something for the next person. Like that's kind of like legacy and growth. But when you're doing year by year, it's almost like a great cool, I finished my event. I'm taking a breath. Oh, now I've got to do the wrap up. I'm now going to do the Acquittals. I'm now doing the funding application for the next year's one. I'm now programming the next year up and now the events happening again. And it's just like you've had no chance to change, grow. Take that step. So I think, yeah, I, it's a lot.
Kuichiang “Kush” Kuiy 33:37
But to answer your question, just briefly, I think what my current feelings towards the climate at the moment in the sector is, yeah, like I basically said, we're just sitting in observing, where I'm really exhausted by all the uncertainty of the last two years. And I just want to like, take my time to see what's going to happen. And I will say, I'm privileged to be able to do that to be honest, because I have another job, which means that I don't have to rely on my independent practice to let support me day by day. I also live at home with my parents and my family. So don't worry about a lot of things like that. And I will say that business or workflow is a family business. So I do have the flexibility. I just wanted to throw that in there. Because not everybody can just like sit back and be like, I'm gonna do my project again in two years time.
Patrick Hayes 34:28
Totally. Yeah, I think that's it's an important thing to remember. Sometimes people were like, especially in the pandemic, there was a lot of artists who were able to go I'm not doing anything for 2 years or things which is I like, last two years. I kind of do like a clean slate for everyone. I'm like you whatever you did to survive. You did the things that you had to do, but some people couldn't, didn't have choices that they had to do. So they you know, they had to create something for online content. They left the scene a lot of people moved out of Victoria. Yeah, they move to different places like, it's, it's important to kind of recognise, but also, you know, everyone's feelings are valid. But it's, I do understand that idea of going, I need to just set that off. And because I also at the moment, I work for RMIT, which is like a university, which does like a stable, you know, income. And I work for MILKE, which is able to kind of work in that. So I'm very lucky to have those jobs that I can keep on going and have ongoing income. All those points. It's, yeah, it's an interesting time. And I think, I think you're right there is this kind of sitting back and observing right now, because we've all done like the we've all done the, I think every producer has done that I've had to plan five versions of the same event. And we're all just like I've, I've done enough for now. And I need to know, what is happening, when it's happening, why it's happening. The next questions we kind of do it was about funding, which we've kind of touched on a little bit where you've talked around how you've sought some funding, just mainly, I put this in there, because I find that it's the one issue that nearly every producer has in common is how do I fund my projects and get things to it? So what kind of funding do you do to fund your projects? Do you look at grants? Or do you get sponsorship? Where do you sit in your events?
Kuichiang “Kush” Kuiy 36:18
So I think, just touching back to the previous point, privilege comes into this as well. I never feel I don't, I don't, especially now during the pandemic, JD, and I will let we're not going to do things if we don't have the money for it. And we'll just wait till we have the money for it with an example would be this idea for a podcast that we really wanted to do. But we didn't have the funds for it. Now, obviously, it doesn't cost much to get a podcast up and running. But we're also just like, we want to be at least painful at some of our time. So I'd say that to say, the way that we fund our projects, we apply for grants, that's probably the bulk of the funding over the last two years. But we've been doing Ross for a while before that it was all self funded, self funded, raising money with family and friends and the community. And when I say with the community, I mean, the first hour Yeah, that's like a really vague, the first ones that we did, I put in some money, JD put some money. My dad's not for profit, put in a couple $100 as well and gave us the community hall that we had it in the Town Hall. So that was taken care of. And they took care of AV AV equipment. And then we got our whole team together, which was all the artists and like the creative team. And we we call it hitting the streets or like hitting the pavement. So we went to places that had a lot of South Sudanese businesses or South Sudanese owned businesses that African owned businesses actually in general. Yeah, we just spoke to people, we actually raised a couple $100 like that, which is great. And it helped. So that's how we raise money from the community. And we still do things like that. We visit church groups, we talk to community organisations and just see they can support us. And then the other way that I found it is through my job, you know, self funded, and you hope that you make the money back on the back end plus a little bit of profit, if you're lucky.
Patrick Hayes 38:30
If you're lucky, sometimes we're not that lucky. Yeah, I understand that in many ways. Yeah, I think it's always a difficult balance of those points. And it is a privileged situation. But I also think it is an important lesson sometimes to learn around the money and getting paid. And sometimes like I used to talk to artists a lot around, not under selling, or just trying to get like a project up necessarily. Because it's like, even though they might not be full time jobs, they might be casual jobs or whatever, for emerging artists. I used to say like you're giving up a day's worth of, you know, paid casual work to do this project. And you might make the decision to do it still. But you really need to think about, you know, are you are you actually even just paying, you're not just working for free, you're actually paying money because you're not getting that income from other sources and just being aware of it. And sometimes I've even I have had to shoot myself in the foot really, and kind of say to artists, like no, we shouldn't do this project because I can't pay you what you need to do it. And I know that we all just want to make art happen sometimes and I get that but I also want you to have rent and food
Kuichiang “Kush” Kuiy 39:44
I've had to do that a fair few times. And the biggest thing that I find is time. Because I'm always like I said, if you don't have the money for it, we're not going to I don't want to do it. Well, I don't think we should do it. But I feel it's It's a hard conversation to have with some artists. So like, there were a few guys I was talking to earlier this year, I think it was like right after, right? So probably like May And they're like, Yeah, we have that you want to do a show one on it right off the momentum from Ross, we want it, I was like, okay, when you want to do it July, it's like, like this is that's really soon, you know, Im' like, we could do it. But like, here's what it's gonna mean, you're probably not going to get paid, we're probably going to fork out money to do this, all that. But they still wanted to do it. And I had to say, all right, but I like, I just don't feel comfortable with that. To be honest, I know that you guys want to, you have work, you want to share it, but at the same time, like, it's going to be very stressful for you, it's going to be very stressful for me. And like you said, they're going to be missing out on because they were like, Hey, we're just we're willing to pay for it. You know, because they have other jobs, they're willing to fund it themselves. Like not like, it's, I don't feel comfortable doing that stuff anymore. I used to because I had to at the start. But now I'm just not willing to do that for myself and also for the artists that I work with, even if they're willing to do it. Because I know what it feels like. And I don't want to put anybody in that position.
Patrick Hayes 41:13
I used to be like the absolute same at the start of my career. I won't say what festival I was interning for. But I was an intern at a festival. I was meant to do 100 hours for like a university thing. And I ended up doing 300 hours of free labour just because I kept saying, Yes, I learned a lot. I wouldn't change that experience. But now as someone who has had to look after interns at festivals, I am horrified. always like, Oh my God, Why did no one stop me and go you need to go home. This was too much work. But I think and it's that kind of that organiser maternal energy of a producer, I guess where we are that caregiver, in that sense of going sometimes they're the same thing. We have to take that step back and go, actually, big picture. I need to see what's going to happen down the line.
Kuichiang “Kush” Kuiy 42:04
And you said before, one of my definitions of producing is creating the context for work to happen. Yeah. And so what we're talking about is like a pretty unhealthy, precarious, toxic in some ways, kind of context. And it's like, do you really want to create a work in that context? And as you said, with that maternal energy that caregiving that is inherent in a producer, like, Oh, should be, I think, in my opinion, sometimes you just can't do it.
Patrick Hayes 42:34
I also like how you do the way that you said it was also very similar to how I do it, where it was like, Okay, well, here are all the options.
Kuichiang “Kush” Kuiy 42:42
Yeah.
Patrick Hayes 42:42
And this is not a great option. And then you're hoping for them to go, oh, okay, well, let's not do it. And then they're like, oh, no, no, let's so don't be like, Okay. It's your decision. And they're like, let's do it. I'm like, No, you chose wrong. That's what the decision was meant to be. But yes, I do love that stepping process.
Kuichiang “Kush” Kuiy 43:01
Yeah, yeah, I was fully expecting this. But oh, yeah. No,no. Yeah.
Patrick Hayes 43:09
yes, there's no wrong answer. But you did choose the wrong answer somehow. Yeah. Oh, well, I guess like that kind of walks into, like our conversation about like, this next question is like, Why do you think producers are important, which I, to be honest, I think we kind of just discussed why one of the main reasons I think producers are important myself is that we are those guiding creatures. And I think the new wave of producers, which we are kind of more focused on that positive mental health, that real care for artists and ourselves is a big step forward not to grudge the old guard of producers. But I think there is a lot more of a vocal aspect to looking after ourselves and not just doing the show must go on mentality, which has kind of been with us. So why do you think producers are important to the landscape? Are there any other points you'd like to bring up?
Kuichiang “Kush” Kuiy 43:58
Yeah, because I've thought about this question a lot. And I think it's, I think producers are important, because not every, I don't think artists should have to do everything. And something that I've said to the artists, some of the artists that I work with, is that I'm here because at least I think I'm here, like the reason I think I'm here is because all you should really have to do is just like, make the work and say what you want to say. And so going back before it's like, yeah, I need to make sure that your work doesn't go in vain. And also that your work is treated with you and your work are treated with care and dignity. And so yeah, that's why I think producers are important for the landscape. It's those two or three things, artists shouldn't have to do everything and a lot of them can't. I know, I know a handful of amazing self producing artists and It's, I think it's a rare thing to be able to be a self producing artists because they just want to focus like on the work. They don't have to negotiate, they don't have to. But you also on top of that can't hand over that responsibility to just anybody. Or just you can't you can't even like, and also that the producer also is often the mediator, because it's also like that thing of like care and dignity, like you can't just hand your work over to the presenting body, you know, like you, I think that producer plays an important role to make sure that you're getting the best deal, you're being treated with care, you're worth being treated with dignity. And I think that's important.
Patrick Hayes 45:41
Yeah, I've talked to a couple and we'll be talking to more, I'm assuming in the future, self producing artists who are amazing, often, even the amazing ones are going I wish I didn't have to do this because it is so mind bending. And I could only imagine like, being a producer, is hard enough. But also create for me, I've only ever been a producer, I haven't really been an artist. So I come from it. At that point, I could not imagine having to go through the creative process, while also being a producer and working the other way. I talked to Anna Piper Scott who's like a self producing artists comedian, and she was talking around kind of going how both sides suffer, she's feels like her art suffers when she's a producer having to produce her own work, but also her producing skills suffer when she's the artist involved. So yeah, I think that's a, that's a really important statement, because I think there's only so much one person can do. And I don't know how people's brains like mine feels at capacity all the time at the moment. And I can only imagine in those more conceptual spaces as well. Well, moving, moving from the larger landscape more to back to like you as a producer, because there's not really, as you kind of said, in your own journey, there's no, you know, ABC Steps to Becoming a producer. So these two last questions are more based around just a chance to celebrate successes, but also share and kind of connect and go, we all make mistakes. So what is the proudest moment for you of being a producer? Like what's the biggest success that you carry with you?
Kuichiang “Kush” Kuiy 47:18
The first ROSS, that was in 2017, Or 2018, Yeah, we plan to do it in 2017, but just couldn't get it up. So 2018 was when it actually happened. And that was definitely the proudest moment of my life. But in my career, yeah, I remember sitting in my car the next day, and I was just, oh, well, after the festival. I was the last one to leave the hole locked up and stuff like that. And then the next day, I was just by myself, I didn't talk to anybody for like, 24/ 36 hours, not even my best friend, like the artistic director. And yeah, parts of the officers sat in the car and cried, because I was like, so happy and overwhelmed that it had actually happened.
Patrick Hayes 48:00
Yeah, yeah. I, I understand that. I also think I've had those moments, I think it's made worse from being just like, exhausted from doing an event. And then suddenly, you're just like, every emotion. The first hit is always one of the most powerful, I think when you've gone. Yeah, I did that thing. On the other side, do you have any mistakes or anything that you would like to share or anything you're like, here's something that's a common pitfall that I wish I knew about while I was producing and didn't know about until it happened.
Kuichiang “Kush” Kuiy 48:36
I can answer that first part of the question, but I don't know if it's like as relevant to the second part. But this is something I've been dealing with a lot this year, or the last seven months, actually. And it ties into this burnout thing. I think one of the biggest mistakes I've made is not communicating. And just like falling off the grid. You know, we touched on it earlier talking about mental health, and how we've, a lot of us have been going through it over the last 24 months. But I really got to a point where like, I just, I just couldn't talk not even Yeah, I couldn't talk to anybody. And I didn't want to talk to anybody. And I was allowed to do that. And I don't feel like I was wrong for doing that. But I do think it was a mistake the way I went about it. Because in hindsight like we're in September now, and I think I could have would have been better to take a solid two months off, or three months off, or even a month off, because that's probably what I needed. It's not even like the type of exhaustion whereas like, I need a weekend or a week or two weeks. It was a solid amount of time. And because I didn't do that, like I was getting lots of phone calls, didn't answer the calls, emails building up. And like I said, it's okay to do that. But it does impact your professional relationships. So, and the thing is about the sector, everybody, a lot of people are really loving and they get it. And so it's sometimes feels like, so people will Yeah, they'll they'll, they'll understand. But it's still a professional relationship. So it does, it can damage your reputation, in some ways, like, I felt, and I don't know, if I imagined it's like, maybe I'm overdramatizing it in my head or to internalising it too much. But I do think it's important in this sector, like your reputation is really important. And I think you don't want to become like, I felt that I was really flaky, you know, and like, nobody wants to work with somebody that's flaky. And stuff like that. So the mistake was not talking to the people not talking to people, despite knowing that they understand and to not giving myself like the proper solid break that I needed, which meant reducing my workload or removing like the lead completely.
Patrick Hayes 50:59
Yeah, I think I've definitely been in those similar spaces, especially because we're in such an extroverted organisation, like career path, I should say, like more, as you said, like, sometimes it's communication overload. And there's just so much stimulus and so much thinking and all those points, but I think, yeah, as much as it like, although there might have been some kind of frustration on communication parts, I think that's like a an element. But also, I've I've learned to kind of go reputation is important. But I also need to remember that memory is short for a lot of people as well, where people move on forgive. But it's also the fact that, you know, that was a hampering with your recovery process as well, because you were getting stressed about not responding to the calls that were happening on your phone and all of those points. And yeah, it's hard, especially when you're first experiencing it, because you're not exactly sure how to say it. And this is kind of one of the reasons that this podcast is existing is because even if like three producers, listen to it and go, Oh, wow. Other producers are having a rough time at the moment. Great. I'm not the only one. Yeah, then I've done what I wanted to do, because I think it's it's so hard that we don't have those spaces to share in that same kind of way. And you're right, a lot of people have experienced the same exact like, have gone through those points. And I can tell you that right now, even people who are not taking time off. I've had people like when I'm pitching shows, sometimes I know that venues can't get back to me, and they can't communicate anything to me. And I know that they feel bad. But instead of just telling me oh, I can't pitch I can't programme your show or help fund the show. They just don't respond. And then suddenly, it's like four or five months of me following up and harassing and it can be so hard because it's Yeah, then then you just start feeling crap, because it's been three months and you don't know how to engage in those conversations again, and yeah, so I definitely empathise with going through that process. But I think I said, you're taking really great steps of like, even the out of office, just having one of those on whenever I've been like, I'm just not communicating or slow to communicate. I've learned to do it in tests, like when I was in busy times of work as well. I added that on and just said, Look, sorry, I'm super busy right now, I might not get to your email in a couple of days. If it's urgent, please test like I just kind of set those expectations up of what I can deliver. And yeah, I am. Yeah, definitely not not a solo'd experience. But it's a hard one regardless. The last this kind of brings us to our last little question, and it kind of fits in the same realm of going if you could give one piece of advice to like a younger version of yourself, what would it be?
Kuichiang “Kush” Kuiy 53:51
Yeah, I have an answer for this one off the dome boundaries, and that it's okay to have them, you know, and that ties exactly, it's almost like the flip side of expectations. You know, I think that it's yeah, the flip side of the inverse to me is almost like their expectations, but you also have to have boundaries. And yeah, putting that automatic reply on my email was one of them. But also, having boundaries also means you have to be very intentional about what you're doing. Just so you're so you're cognizant of when your boundaries are being crossed, or when you're working within your boundaries. So I wouldn't, I would tell my younger self, like put up your boundaries and stick to them. And don't feel bad about it. Because if you don't stick to it, if you don't respect your own boundaries, nobody else will. And yeah, so that would definitely be the advice that I'd give to my younger self.
Patrick Hayes 54:48
Honestly, it's one of the hardest things to do in the arts. Well, but it's one of the things that is like if you started earlier, I think it's gonna be easier to do. Yeah, by the time where we're, you know, we're at our points we're doing it and it like, great, I've now done so many years of work, I've tried to get there, and now I'm putting in boundaries. But if I could do it, start doing those things earlier. Same thing with me and that kind of into like, I look at it, and I look at that internship and I literally was doing like 18 hour days. And I'm like, I did not have any boundaries. And I wish I had started clocking it, but it took me like another five years after that to kind of go, oh, I need to put in work boundaries and create those structures. So I think that is also a really good piece of advice to give on and something that we need to carry on with us. Yeah, that kind of brings us to the end of our conversation. Now what I'll do is, listeners, I'll get Kush's, like, do a little bio and stuff or like the little episode points and any links that you might want to share if you had any specific events or your own websites that you'd like to do. So if you're looking for Kush you can find those points. But thank you so much for your time today, which has been such a wonderful conversation.
Kuichiang “Kush” Kuiy 55:59
It's been very therapeutic for me. So thank you for organising this podcast and inviting me to come on. You mentioned before that it's even if like two or three people like hear this, it'll be valuable. But even for me to just like say this stuff out loud has been very valuable to me. And yeah, thank you and I'm looking I hope I can meet you. I'm sure we'll meet in person one day, but we've never been spoken real like this is the first time ever voice.
Patrick Hayes 56:31
I know it's this really weird situation. And if if it gets left in that's part of my amazing charm where I have which I think is why Laura got me to do the interviews. But it has been lovely to have this chat. I'm just going to listeners, I'll catch you next time.
Laura Milke Garner 56:48
Hey, thanks for listening to the podcast MILKE is your go to for getting your show to the stage. We run industry leading courses, workshops for independent artists and producers covering everything you want to know about producing your show. Want to find out more, head to our website milky.com.au That's Milke.com.au
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
