Laura Milke Garner 0:00
You're listening to a MILKE podcast, we acknowledge the traditional owners of the land of which we operate the Wurundjeri people of the Kulin nation. And with respect to where our collaborators guests and listeners are. We extend our acknowledgement to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander elders past and present.
Patrick Hayes 0:19
Hello, my name is Patrick Hayes, and this is Producers in Conversation. This podcast is all about a space for producers to discuss share triumphs, experiences and difficulties as we explore the ever elusive question what is a producer? Anyway? I've been in this industry for about 10 years now and I'm still not sure I know the answer. Today, I'm joined by Joel Allan, who is a producer who has worked in many different festival contexts similar to myself, we're going to a lot of the conversation today around mental health, impostor syndrome, how we tackle that and kind of just working through our producer careers, just as a heads up not necessarily a trigger warning, we don't get into any terribly dark conversations, but it is worth just noting that there was a lot of mental health talk in this specific episode, I'll have a few links in the show notes just to kind of link to if you are also a producer arts worker who is struggling right now. Onto the conversation. Joel, would you like to introduce yourself to our listeners?
Joel Allan 1:19
I am Joel. I am currently the assistant producer for Adelaide cabaret festival. I go by he/him, sometimes I go by she/her, but not very. And I forgot the last part already.
Patrick Hayes 1:36
But like it's kind of like just like your context in the arts or like how how we would best like to describe yourself for a conversation about producing.
Joel Allan 1:47
Yeah, okay. Well, so yeah, I am the student producer for Adelaide cabaret festival. Outside of that, I do think of myself as a creative producer, living and working in Adelaide. Yeah. And that's about it. Really.
Patrick Hayes 2:00
Yeah. Awesome. That's, that's great. That's all like I said, there's no wrong answers to introducing yourself. I mean, I guess technically, there are wrong answers to introducing yourself. That sounded correct. In many ways. Okay, great. So expanding on one minute I
Joel Allan 2:22
my indentiy crisis Oh, sorry.
Patrick Hayes 2:25
Look, we've all been there. And that's kind of what we do. And this is what the kind of the whole podcast is about is trying to figure out what is going on with our professional identities. So, Joel, I guess the first question I'm going to ask is, What is your definition of a producer?
Joel Allan 2:45
Great question. Thank you so much for asking. I think my definition of a producer is somebody who works and thinks about producing. It's somebody who helps get something from an idea stage to an actual stage is kind of how I see it, they kind of get things done is pretty much it. Yeah, they're the person behind the scenes that allows the projects to get up and be celebrated and be participated in. Yeah, it's it's kind of the backbone of how stuff happens. is pretty much my vibe.
Patrick Hayes 3:23
Yeah. I mean, like, in most of the conversations I've been having, that seems to be a very strong staple. Basically, it's like, kind of the one sentence that you'd say for producers is like, the person who gets things done is kind of like, we just, we do what we have to do. But yeah, so weird. Multi like, which also makes it really hard to define, I think, because it's more like, the role itself is almost like a vibe of like, just getting things done.
Joel Allan 3:54
Producing is a vibe? I would absolutely 100% agree with that. It's a vibe.
Patrick Hayes 4:00
Yes. Some days more of a vibe than others? Yeah. As we kind of travel along, so what I guess why did you become a producer in your career?
Joel Allan 4:12
Look, I don't know if I did it intentionally. I think it may have just been like a natural progression. I started my art career back in like 2006, which feels so long ago. Now. I did High School and I did all the things there and didn't really know where I wanted to land. And so when I finally left high school, I was going to do tourism, because I felt like that was the thing that I wanted to do. And through tourism, I discovered the Adelaide Fringe Festival. And while I was talking to one of my lecturers, I was like, What do I do? I don't know what like, I don't know where I'm going and she was like, well, maybe go and check out Adelaide fringe like maybe you can be a volunteer and see what that's all about. So I volunteered with them. I actually did like in like a six week kind of volunteer thing with the youth education programme and kind of help realise all of that, which actually now thinking about it that really kind of was like my first taste of producing, I didn't even know it, how funny. And then I kind of went from there and worked alot front of house, and was basically travelling Australia doing that for many years. And then the natural progression from that was like, running venues and operations. And then I was living into state and then in 2017, moved back to Adelaide, and was kind of like not really sure what to do. And then I was offered this event, like a venue, manager role to activate this venue and create events in there. So I was like, Great, I'm moving into event management, this is really exciting. I like enrolled to study event management, and then all of that kind of fell away. And then I ended up in 2019, working for Fringe Festival as a fringe club as the fringe club producer. And that was probably like my first step as a producer. But it was just like, Yeah, still creating events. And then I've just kind of worked on a few other things since then. And now I'm at Adelaide cabaret as an assistant producer, and still quite unsure how I got here.
Patrick Hayes 6:12
Hey, I mean, that's a fairly like good project like trajectory, like I've like when I've just shared my experiences on the podcast, it was been very, like artsadmin and then producing focus. But I actually like your story you actually resonates a lot. There's a few people I know who've kind of gone that front of house ticketing box office route into producing where they've worked as like ticketing managers for festivals, and then suddenly an hour programming festival, like working within festival contexts, all of those points, especially with those major festivals like fringe, Adelaide and Melbourne, where those roles are super intense, often the times and it's a very interesting way of like kind of seeing that perspective you meet a lot of artists meet a lot of audiences, you start to learn the tastes of the general public as well, which is something that some producers, you know, totally need more of, in my opinion. Also, myself, sometimes it's really hard to know, when you're seeing stuff and programming, you're like, oh, yeah, I like that thing. But will 200 People like that thing to come and see it tonight? I don't know.
Joel Allan 7:16
Yeah, I mean, like, audiences are really at the core of like, producing really like it. Sometimes it feels like the project is what you're aiming for. But ultimately, you're creating stuff to find that audience. And if you don't know who your audience is, and you don't know where they are, then like you're kind of missing that key component. Because if you put on a fringe show, and nobody sees it, did you actually put on a fringe show?
Patrick Hayes 7:39
Look, that's been the question that I'm sure a lot of people have asked themselves across the years, especially in the last couple of years, with all of the very difficult times within ticket sales and COVID. Yeah, it's such an interesting mindset. Because it's also like, I've had to switch my hat sometimes in that where I've worked for, like, more intense, I guess, like not intense, but like funded public art projects or things like that, where you actually it's just happening, and it's kind of like the audience is almost irrelevant in a certain sense, because it's just like, this public thing will happen in a main city square, and people will engage with it, or they won't, and the artwork is happening. So I was also I've had to, like, take my hat off of like, worrying about ticket sales or things like that, but it's more about, we need to make it look objectively interesting. And yeah, it's, it's a really, audience is always a part of our journey. But it's just really interesting. Sometimes the different lenses of like, I guess, urgency of it, or were how much they do, like more of a comedy festival or a Fringe Festival. Definitely we are at the you know, beck and call have the audience to please turn up and buy tickets and try to do that more than one hour in advance. But yeah, in that journey of kind of travelling through and even travelling around Australia, like what was the moment that you felt like a producer?
Joel Allan 9:04
I don't know if I've actually had any, like crowning moments. I think there's like definitely been moments on every project where I've just like, gone. This is really, really cool. And I'm so excited that this has like happened, like, I guess there's like a part of me that's like, am I actually a producer and I actually doing is I know it's in my job title. But like, do I know how to do this? Am I legit? Yeah, I just like there's moments every now and then where I just like, I'm doing something very cool. And I'm just like, Ah, this is cool. I like doing this. This is this feels right.
Patrick Hayes 9:40
That's all you need.
Joel Allan 9:41
Yeah. Yeah,
Patrick Hayes 9:42
I think it's like, and Joel has been a fan and has listened to our podcast. So I might reference some of those other conversations that I know Joe has listened to.
Joel Allan 9:50
MAbsolutely.
Patrick Hayes 9:52
Yeah, I think like that's a like an experience that a lot of us have had where it's a really weird task to come. Have a line and go, I am a producer now. And it often relies on someone else telling us that we have fulfilled that role or have done that, or all those moments. But yeah, I honestly don't think I had a moment. Specifically, like I asked that question, but I don't know if I had this like flick of a switch that said, Oh, yes, I am now a producer. And I now know exactly what I'm doing. And I know exactly what it is I'm doing. In fact, the more I do this series, the more that it's just becoming more unanimous that producers only have like about a 70% idea of exactly what we do. And then there's like a 30% of random chaos that we have to manage along the way.
Joel Allan 10:41
Yeah, it's it like the other day, my boss is really amazing. And she makes sure that we do like a one on one check in every week just to be like, how are you? How are you feeling? Do you need anything from me? How can I support you better? And I really appreciate that. And the other week, I had a couple of days off and came back. And she was like, how are you doing? I was like, Yeah, I'm doing really well. I think I've just realised that I'm only still maybe like a baby producer. And then I've been putting too much pressure on myself and realising that has been really good for my mental health. Because realistically, I've only been doing it for like three years, like, sure I've been working in and around it and know how to events and stuff. Like actually with a title as a producer, it's only been three years. So I don't know where where it went from being like, cool, this is a new job, too. You need to know absolutely everything and be good at it. 100% of the time.
Patrick Hayes 11:31
I have often reflected on that myself, because I had a very strict a steep trajectory. In my career I in within the space of seven years, I went from a administrator to programme manager of a whole festival. And I think it's because producers for one, we're often this kind of like where this knowledge role in this very chaotic and just have dash kind of industry where a lot of things and a lot of points and often the role itself because it is always we fill in the unknown. There's always this kind of like improvement and upskilling that just kind of happens with our roles. But also you just you suddenly have like these veteran artists, or people who work in the industry who've been there for like 10 years, who are suddenly looking to you for like answers or solutions and point and it's very easy to suddenly be like, Oh, crap, now I'm this really like, integral thing, and then everything will fall down if I'm not here, which is why I didn't have like a holiday in that seven year period and kind of burnout. But yeah, I think that's just like some I think when you're producing you start to like mature career wise quite quickly up the ranks, because it is just like every people just start looking to you going well, what how do we do this? Like, what are the legalities around this? What's the licencing that we need? Like, oh, like, you know, we want to drop something from the ceiling and have it set on fire in the middle of the stage? What do we have to do? And it's always like the artist like that, like, you know, all the heads turn and look at you at once you're like, Well, I guess I'm googling how to set things on fire. And what I've seen
Joel Allan 13:11
Google the best friend ever.
Patrick Hayes 13:12
Google is the producer that we all we all have.
Joel Allan 13:20
It's like between Google and like the collective mind of your network that you can just like touch base into to be like, right, this is what I'm doing with who's dealt with it. Where do I go to cabaret festival is actually part of Adelaide Festival centre. So we have like four festivals under the banner at festival centre. So it's really nice to be like, Okay, I'm dealing with this. And then like, just kind of yell across the pods who can help me who's dealt with this before? Who's got the answers? And that's really that's a really nice moment to have like that as a support behind you. For sure.
Patrick Hayes 13:54
It is one of the things I miss about like I used to work at Brisbane powerhouse. And there was about I think, at the, at the best of times in the times a powerhouse has about like five or six producers. And that was just a really lovely environment to kind of have that support. Because you would just go what's going on? Like, I need an answer, like Does anyone have like someone who could come and perform something this Friday or know anyone who fits this very niche bracket of what I need to fill out something? And just like having six creative minds kind of like throwing it is just great. But then also it was like just stuff like, Oh, does anyone have any tips for my budget, or like talking around those things, which is often where I throw my Google hat on is like googling how to make all my cells equal this like all of these kind of like probably very simple things, but Google will just tell me how to do that.
Joel Allan 14:46
My boss is pretty much convinced that I am a super wizard at Excel. And it's just because I've googled the most basic of formulas to do something that makes it look pretty that she just is like I could never do that. I was like you can use Need to google the right thing.
Patrick Hayes 15:00
This just needs a Google how to make my spreadsheet pretty and All of that points. Well speaking in that kind of realm, so we're talking about spreadsheets and skills and all of that stuff. What kind of core skills do you think a producer needs?
Joel Allan 15:15
Look, I'm going to say first and foremost, like my, my pokemon power, I talked about my boss too much. But she coined that phrase for me is like creative problem solving. And like ideas, focus, like I can give you ideas until the cows come home, depending on what the question or the problem is, but I feel like that's been my biggest asset is like going right? Okay, here's the problem. Here's seven ways we can solve it. And then trying to work through that. But yeah, problem solving is definitely right up there. Time management, also very crucial. People skills, I think being able to, and that lack really evolves into many different facets of like negotiating and artist management, and all of that kind of stuff. Like if people being good with people is good. And then finances is the other thing. I think they like the hot four that I've got,
Patrick Hayes 16:09
look, I think those are really the staple like skeleton of every producer that I have met or known. Like, it's kind of Yeah, and also in a lot of the conversations, we've got a few more that are coming out soon. Yeah, that kind of like looking at problem solving, but not always only being able to figure out one, we have to find out multiple solutions and just have like, generate ideas and kind of go, Look, this is a difficult thing. But hear us like, you know, we could do this, this this, this or we just don't do it like this are the five options that you've got someone telling me what we're doing, because I need the artist to go yep, that one's workable. The director to go yep. Or even sometimes it's the budget going which one? Can we afford? That one done? Yeah, for sure. But yeah, people skills, time management, all those like basically organisational skills and that kind of business sense, which I think is a very important part of being a producer, and what a lot of people expect of us to kind of add to that process?
Joel Allan 17:09
For sure. Yeah, for sure. And it's also like the element of like not being precious about anything, I think if like you can't fixate on anything, because the minute you do is the minute that it changes. And like, you have to be really flexible to be able to move with the punches, depending on what which way the project ends up going. And really trying to like, you know, guide it back to the end product as much as possible. But yeah, there needs to be that flexibility.
Patrick Hayes 17:34
Honestly, one of my favourite part times and I talked about this with Tim Stitz, which is one of the newer episode, I talked about it as the roller coaster drop moment for producers like and it's only like a week out before a project or a festival or whatever. And I it's my favourite time of producing like it is a very intense time, but it is my favourite. Because you suddenly move out of all this metaphorical planning conversations back and forward where, you know, I love I love the arts world, but sometimes when you've had like 17 meetings, and you're just trying to figure out wording on a sign or something like that, I'm just like, I just need to move forward. And then suddenly, you're in like the event. And it's just like, because you don't have any time to like call those meetings or do anything like that. You're just literally relying on impulse and going Yeah, no, moving forward, problem solved fire put out like that's kind of the and that is my, that is the time I have felt the best as a producer and most in control of everything. But it is also just like the most tiring part of being a producer, which is often why we all fall on a heap at the end of the festival and are done
Joel Allan 18:45
yet delivery mode. I bloody love delivery mode. I love the ideation at the beginning of the process, the bit in the middle, where it's like trying to dot all the i's and cross all the t's gets a bit tedious but once you hit delivery, I am the adrenaline kicks in. They're like clear thought processes of like having to solve things in a minute that hadn't really kicks in at that moment. And that's really exhilarating. Yeah, delivery is good time.
Patrick Hayes 19:11
And then you get the sucker punch of reporting after it and you have to kind of go through and look at all the carnage that you did in like delivery mode and you're like, Oh no, what did I do and delivery.
Joel Allan 19:22
So cabaret festival happens in June of each year. And we have to reconcile everything by the end of the financial year. So once the festival is finished, we literally have 10 days if that to like reconcile everything now that is like not a way to
Patrick Hayes 19:40
it's sounds intense
Joel Allan 19:42
it's it's so intense. But on the other side of that is that like you get to hit like brake have a brake much quicker because you're not waiting months and months for like stuff to like be finalised, like within by, you know, mid and July. We're like great. We'll see you in two weeks. That's it. I'll have the holiday.
Patrick Hayes 20:00
though Yeah, no, I think that's sometimes there are benefits to it. And sometimes they're not which I imagine Caberat festival, similar to like when I was working on APAM had like really high stakes like state government, federal government funding and support. Were like I don't know, like, because APAM kind of sits in its place. So the Australian Performing Arts Market for anyone who doesn't know the acronym, to it's in a very official standing, the reports were like, super, like, those were ones of those reports where I had to, like, print out like a 60 page document, bind it, and then mail it to like the government. And that was my, after an eighth happened, like trying to like, not even write it. I didn't even have to write most of it. But I had to format it all because it had to almost look like a book. But anyway, reporting, it's a time that is anyway, that forever. And speaking of things that we struggle with reporting, what is one thing that you struggle with on being a producer? And how do you manage it?
Joel Allan 20:57
I like struggle with mental health. That's probably like, my biggest struggle, anxiety, depression, impostor syndrome, like all of the above. And I feel like I'm getting better at it, which is good. I kind of moved back to Adelaide in 2017. Because I got to a point where I actually was absolutely burnt out. I didn't have a home base. So it was kind of just like living out of a suitcase. For a few years, I had done some really tough contracts, and my health had kind of started deteriorating. So I was like, oh, okay, I think I need to make some big life changes. So I moved back home to Adelaide in 2017. And just kind of been on that journey ever since. And it's still a journey that I'm on, I am pretty open about it. So that makes things life a lot easier. The Depression stuff is kind of, I wouldn't say it's gone. But it's definitely not as intense as it used to be. I could, they would, when I was like having some pretty bad depression crashes, I would just not be available for like four days. And it would just be me under my covers with everyone worried because they couldn't get in contact with me. So like, it got pretty bad there for a while, I haven't had something like that, probably in like a year, if not longer at this point. So that's really good. And it just was really great that through like the really bad part of that I was actually working with an organisation here in Adelaide called access to art is a disability arts organisation, they advocate for, like disabled artists. And then also like, provide programmes for those living with a disability. So I was working on a project for them. And so like, he was like, the perfect place to be while I was going through all of that, because I was 110% supported by them through that journey. And I think being able to, like talk to them about it, as my employer and feel supported through that has like enabled me to now like carry that forward and be able to have that conversation, like with, you know, my ongoing workplaces. So that has probably been the hardest thing. Yeah, the depression side of stuff has kind of eased off, which is really nice. The anxiety is always kind of there, but it's manageable. And yeah, it that's just it's kind of weird to have that and to be a producer at the same time.
Patrick Hayes 23:18
Oh, but like working. I honestly don't know if I've met a producer that doesn't suffer anxiety, or de pression, in some way, shape, or form. Yeah. And you know, I'm very open about my own mental journey as well. I've gone through a burnout and points I don't necessarily blame. Like any industry. I said, I was like, I just pushed myself too hard for too long and had to stop and my body was like, not, you're stopping now. And yeah, like and I think that was kind of like mental health and the arts in general, is a difficult kind of conversation. Because there's a lot of mentality that's been changing slightly slowly and getting there. I think there has been positive change in the arts around mental health and understanding some of those complexities that comes to working in such a high intensity industry, especially since it's not as stable and then it was even getting better. And then obviously the lockdown happened which kind of forced everyone to maybe recognise it a bit more because it was a widespread, urgent issue for a lot of people. You know, a lot I had a lot of artists who couldn't fulfil contracts and stuff like that, because they were just going through mental health issues in lockdown. And you know, trying to expect someone to create an artwork when they're going through a massive bout of depression and can't get out of their bed for four days is not realistic and not useful on either side. Like it's not useful for the product or for the artist. And yeah, I think talking about it is a good like thing to do in a public forum as well because the more I speak to people, the more I realise more arts workers are going through those feelings and experiencing that. And in my own personal experience of depression, the hardest, and the most awful part of depression for me is that it is so isolating, and then it makes you feel like you're the only person experiencing those things. And yeah, that's, that's the real shit part of it. And, yeah,
Joel Allan 25:22
Yeah. And it's really I think what's like, fascinating is that, like, they're like, on a day to day basis, like people can feel, you know, slightly depressed and slightly anxious. But until like, you've felt it in like the most, like consuming form of itself, you don't really fully understand how much it like how full on it is. Like I can viscerally feel those moments when I was just like, shut down, and like, unable to do anything. And like it just it thought it kind of gives me chills to think about how debilitating it is. And like, even just yeah, like to think that I'm not really dealing with it as much as possible. But as much as I was like, now, like, that feels like growth, and it feels really nice. Yeah. Yeah, I don't know where I'm going with this point. But
Patrick Hayes 26:12
that's okay. Like, I think it's like, don't have to go anywhere. It's just one of those things. But I think you're right. And I think it's, yeah, I think I've just seen a lot more people. And I think that's kind of why the, in a weird way the pandemic helped is a little bit is that, at least in Victoria, whenever I was going through their, you know, two year lockdown, you could see people struggling with what I would call the symptoms of depression, for the first time. In their life, like a severe depression of going, I can't do anything nothing's, and it may have been an extrinsically imposed depression. But it was just really interesting to kind of see how we all went through that process. And I think hopefully, the arts have kind of got a better understanding of like, when people say those words it hits and how that can kind of impact. And it's just one of those things that we're all kind of learning and getting through. I think a lot of the major, like, mentors slash figureheads. In my career, I've often like had these conversations with they've also have gone through like massive mental health spells and all of that stuff. Some people are really great at compartmentalising it and you would like never know, you know, that razzle dazzle dancing around. I'm a producer, let's get another drink kind of vibe. And then there's other people who are just a bit more, that disconnect is getting harder and harder to kind of do so yeah, I think it's like it's worth doing it. Listeners, I'm probably going to just because we talked a lot about depression. In this episode, I'll probably put some links up to some of those resources, just a gentle reminder that you can always access it well, not always, but like a mental health plan from the government, get your get your 10,10 or 20 sessions, whichever it is for whichever state I know some states have different these days, get the plans, go see a therapist, have a chat, do the things. But also, if you're a producer out there that's really struggling with anxiety and depression like, yeah, like, take a second. We all have been there. I have had events that have literally left me crying in the corner of a room. I have, like, honestly, it was like I think it was at a like a festival and everyone's else was like I could hear the party happening and like the room next door. And I was just like mentally physically spent. And just like in the corner going, Oh, my God, what is happening? And yeah, it's It's tough. It's a tough industry. I think that like going back to his earlier answers, it's also hard because we sit in roles where we often whether it is put on us or not. We often in roles that take on responsibility in certain ways. So if also a project's not going well, or something is going awry. I know I feel responsible, even if I might not be, which is a really frustrating trying to disconnect. But I think it's, you know, if I can't figure out how the thing falls down and turns on fire on stage, I've suddenly let down the whole project because that was the thing that was very integral to the project or all of that kind of stuff. And it's hard to not take that on.
Joel Allan 29:22
Totally. I was thinking about this earlier today. And it's like producing is like a fully Pass Fail kind of job. It's different shades of pass and fail, but basically your project either gets up or it doesn't. And like that's really a lot of pressure to be under.
Patrick Hayes 29:39
Yeah, it's it's a lot and you know, it is that thing of like, I think you're right, it's a pass fail and often I don't know often it feels more and this might be like one of that psyche things of like bad memories kind of live on longer in your head or not. But like, I remember more of the times that I failed than I've passed. For example,
Joel Allan 29:58
Yeah it's human nature, you always remember the negative stuff, you never remember the positive stuff. Like, there is a point in my life. This is a very random story. But when I was like a child, I was studying theatre outside of school. And there was like this one exercise where we had to, like, do some weird improvising by my by yourself. And in one moment, I decided that I was going to reach out to another kid to help them with my improvised solo improvise. And the teacher was like, What are you doing? And I was like, Oh, I'm just getting them to help me with this thing. And they're like, no, no, this is a solo improvisation. And I was like, Oh, okay. I have held on to that feeling of feeling, rejected in that one small activity in my nearly 40 years of life. And that's the thing that I carry around with me on a daily basis.
Patrick Hayes 30:48
Yep, it's, yes. Look, I, I could I could waste a whole four hours, probably going through every one version of that in my head, which I'm just like, what? Oh, my God, like, all of these horror stories that aren't even arts related, as you said, like, there's things going way back when, where it's just like, simple mistakes that you make, and then suddenly, it's ingrained in your brain.
Joel Allan 31:15
It's like, why am I hanging on to that is irrelevant to anything in life? Nobody else from that moment is thinking about that moment. So like, why am I hanging on to it?
Patrick Hayes 31:26
I've had moments in like, in professional world where I've made mistakes and then just like, I was like, Well, I'm, it's over, you know, I'm no longer going to work in the arts, because everyone will hear about this and I will never work ever again. And it's like, I accidentally sent like a contract maybe to the wrong person or things between everyone has done everyone has done that. But I just remember the absolute fear in my soul of going well, yep. Okay, better, better start looking at courses and upskilling and something else because I'm done. But
Joel Allan 31:59
every time I send a group email, it's that one moment of lag okay, there's a lot of people on this email have I written everything Oh, god, oh god, and then you hit the send and you just like, oh, yeah, it's gone. Yeah, I can't do anything about that.
Patrick Hayes 32:13
I think I had to treat teach myself just to like, type and go but then I then I had this awful a couple of months where I had terrible spelling and a lot of my emails because I was like, not forcibly trying to not check my email and then yeah, Grammarly has helped a lot in that world. flags for me. So another pro tip, get Grammarly. Okay, so we're kind of talking about this anyway, as well. But like, so we're recording this in like mid October ish. And I say that because the world is on fire, and everything is changing and all of those points. But how you dealing with the current climate of 2022? So you're like, obviously, you're working for Adelaide Cabaret festival? And how were you working on the past year as well? Or if you just come into?
Joel Allan 32:53
Yes, so I started March 21. So I was I came in at programme lunchtime time, then. So I helped deliver the 21 festival was onboard from the beginning of 22. And now we're currently looking at 23. And it's a very weird time, I think we're pretty much planning for things to be back to some sort of normal. It's just like customer buying habits that I think are the bits that were most concerned about. And just flight prices, flights and customer buying habits. They're the two hot topics at the moment.
Patrick Hayes 33:28
Flights are intense. I'm even looking to for personal flights at the moment and just for season travels to see family up in Brisbane. And I'm shook as as a young person would probably say I am shooketh. Yeah, I can only make because like, cabaret festival works with a lot of international artists as well. So I'm assuming international airfare is astronomical at the moment.
Joel Allan 33:52
Yeah. It's, it's, it's really hard. We're basically having to like double our what we would normally budget for flights. And that is less than ideal, you know, and hopefully we are conservative and budget more than they need to. And hopefully by the time we need to actually purchase them. Earlier next year. They've come down a bit, but right now, like, we just have to really go off of what we have now. I was reading an article like Qantas came out the other day and said that we shouldn't expect anything to change within the next I think was like eight to 12 months. And that's bonkers.
Patrick Hayes 34:29
Yes, it is one of those things that's definitely sneaking up on it at least like on the flip side. hotel prices have been down a little bit. I guess because be less people are travelling and people need they're trying to incentivize travel. But yeah, it's been it's been really interesting because we're starting to plan out our like artists that we're touring for 2023 as well and trying to budget and plan and look at how to travel across Australia because it often relies on flights and even domestic flights are just really starting to skyrocket a little bit more than what Totally so I think the flights that I'm paying for for in December at the moment, I would normally pay about maybe 300 return with with luggage, and I'm paying 500 return with no luggage, this time round. And it's just like, Well, I hope my family really loves me being up there for December because there's no presents because I've just spent all my present money on getting to Brisbane. I'll put a ribbon on my head. There you go. Yeah, I think that's a that. Yeah, it must be real. Because did you have international artists this year back in the Cabaret Festival or,
Joel Allan 35:38
not really, it ended up being quite local, mostly because at our planning stages, there was still Oh God, what was it called? The 14 day thing where you had to be in a hotel when you came from International, the
Patrick Hayes 35:52
the travelling into isolation,
Joel Allan 35:54
Quarantine! Yeah, that still existed while we were building our programme. And that only really disappeared shortly after we had to go to print. So trying to get American or any internationals to come over to be like, Hey, can you come and be part of our festival PS, you need to be in a hotel locked down for 14 days before you can actually come out? And yeah, nobody else in the world had had that still. So they were like, No, why would I do that? So we didn't have a huge amount. Fortunately, we had a couple of people that were internationals that were kind of in Australia already. We had one group that was just like, we're up for it. Let's do it. So that was really amazing for them to say that so early on. I mean, it didn't eventuate that they needed to but yeah, it was kind of wild. And even as we were going, so we had to like budget with 75. We had to think about this 14 day quarantine for any internationals, which then disappeared once we'd sent off the programme to print and then the Gosh, I've forgotten all the words already is that it was just the start of the year, we could only sell the 75% of our and then reduced capacity. There we go. Just before we went on sale, all of that disappeared. So then all sudden, we could go to 100% with all of our events. So it was just like this wild roller coaster overlaid the first three months of the year. It was it was a lot.
Patrick Hayes 37:15
Yeah, I think that's one of the things things of the chAllanges is that I don't know, like, like with all those changes, it was very quick. And it takes time, as you said, like, you know, the printed programme or like just locking in the programme happens months before the event happens. And it's not this drop of the dime. Turn around, I still remember and I love my family. But even the first lockdown happened because I work with MILKE And we kind of work at the malt house to programme for like comedy festival and things like that. And my family just were like, well, you know, why don't you just make like a Netflix comedy festival as if we could just like immediately change everything about the industry. And I was like, that's not how it works. It takes so much time just to get a person on a stage, let alone people in front of them to listen to them and all these but it's Yeah. And then suddenly, all these longer timelines that were normally like six months lead up time suddenly got condensed to like, two months or you said like suddenly it's like, oh, well, you've planned everything for 75% festival and now it's 100% and go like it's just with a whiplash was it's so intense in that kind of period. It's glad to I'm glad to hear that it's kind of starting to stabilise a bit more though. That's good.
Joel Allan 38:29
Yeah, the like COVID stuff is but I think like audience perceptions and how they buy tickets is still pretty much up in the air. I think like across Australia, it's pretty still Rocky, but like I think Adelaide in particular. Like there's events like I was supposed to go and see Years and Years in November, and they're Adelaide side show that they were doing has just been cancelled, but like that's the only show they've cancelled out of dates in Australia. So it's like okay, so everyone else is kind of bouncing back but Adelaide is still very behind in buying tickets. So it's just it's really strange.
Patrick Hayes 39:05
Yeah, must be like a real is also because Adelaide is often like I guess like I often tourist art destination or a lot of people like kind of go especially with a festival period when it's in that massive fest because I know Adelaide as like, you know, it's one festival starts and then it's like, three months of festivals kind of happen in a big festival soup. Yeah, how that would be impacted with like, less. Festival. Festival of soup. Patrick Hayes, please anyone from Adelaide. Don't hate me for saying that. But yeah, yeah, I mean, it's been such a hard point because like a lot of producers, one of the things we always try to teach or like slowly encourage audiences is to buy early like that's something that we've always been trying to do and I booked early plan early so we can predict and now that has gone out the window. I barely look at ticketing reports until like the day of anymore like it's such a hard Add Point like, yeah, it's impossible to, it's really hard to change that.
Joel Allan 40:06
there was, I did see there was a study that came out this week from bolster and texel, I don't know what those things are. But they have something to do with ticketing in Australia. But they did a kind of like Music Festival and Event type thing. And they surveyed a whole bunch of people, and which I found really pretty fascinating. But the one thing that they liked the main takeaways that I got from it was that like they said things, smaller capacities, which sometimes you can and can't do reasonable prices, people are looking to pay a good price in demand artists and experiences, which like the experiences is the thing that really stood out for me. And what I am noticing is that like shows that have an add an element of kind of another, like immersive, but like where people are getting more than just that I'm doing a show. And you're watching where there's that interaction between the performance and the audience. Like that's what people seem to be picking up. And that's where kind of things seem to be selling out. Is that that extra element of interaction between a performance and an audience?
Patrick Hayes 41:06
Yeah, yeah, it'd be really interesting to see like, what festival reports as well are kind of showing on like the trending of like how ticket sales are compared to past years and everything like that. But um, the next kind of question I like to ask is, why do you think producers are important to the art sector?
Joel Allan 41:24
I mean, I think it kind of runs back to the original thing. Is that like, they are the people that get it done. And if they don't get it done, like, it's not done.
Patrick Hayes 41:39
Yeah, that's, that is a poetic statement right there. They don't get it done.
Joel Allan 41:45
Not done. Done. Yeah. I feel like Rupaul just spouting out nonsense at this point. I'm so sorry.
Patrick Hayes 41:52
I mean, we all need a Rupaul spouting out nonsense for us, you know, what out like, what else? What else can we do? No, I think like, it's what it's one of those double questions. But I think it's kind of like I get most people kind of explain that and what they think a producer is, and then they're gonna go this really in depth talk around what a producer is? And then why is it important? I guess I asked that question. Because I don't know sometimes I look at certain self producing artists or like some of those moments where I think producing often sits in a place where, depending on the project, and how complex it is, I've seen some very simple and straightforward projects that have a producer, where I kind of go all look as if everyone just kind of emailed a bit better and understood timelines a little bit more, my role probably wouldn't have existed in that project. Because all I'm doing is literally just like, being a messenger between people. So I just kind of like to reflect on like, why.
Joel Allan 42:46
Yeah, so yeah, I think like, I think you can nail it there, in the sense that like, like, the producer, is able there to help tackle the things. So that like, the artists can then be artists, you know, and sometimes that might be as simple as just like, you know, checking an inbox and doing a few things. But if that enables the artist to be fully involved in the art that they're making, like, that's the gift we kind of give is to take on those that extra burden that can be as bigger as or as little as it needs to be, but it just enables those people to be in that space, and take the business side out of it. And so that they can create and be invested in that creation.
Patrick Hayes 43:27
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, I'm also I think we're important. I've done my job. I exist in the arts, I get paid for it, please keep employing me art sector? Absolutely. I don't, I never want to have that question suddenly disprove the need for producers in any way. Because I'm not exactly sure what else I'd be doing other than producing
Joel Allan 43:46
They're so like necessary to get things moving and happening and going, and so that the quality of the project at the end is the best it can be? Because, yeah, like I said, the others have that space to be able to be in that space.
Patrick Hayes 44:02
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So this is where we kind of get more focused on personal stories and things like that. And so what is one of the like, when it comes to producing what is the moment that you are most proud of?
Joel Allan 44:16
I think I really had to think about this. Again, I think I call myself a baby producer. So I'm still having those moments. But it's just like any of those moments that like, I feel like a bit of a rockstar. There was a few nights when I was at Fringe club producing that and we had, I mean, Jake Shears came in Aquari came in just randomly, and like having those people in the space that I had created was just like, oh my god, oh my god, famous people are here. Oh my god. They're enjoying the space that I've built. Oh my god. So that was really cool. The stuff that I did with access to arts, there was a project called a heartbeat Club, which was creating like a safe nightclub environment for people with disabilities. And so like the nights that we had for that, and just seeing all of them on the dance floor, and they were like doing DJ training as well. So they were all DJing for each other and having like the best night ever, so like having watching that unfold was really amazing. And then being able to, like secure more funding for that to have a life was also really cool. I secured the funding, and then I moved on to another role. So like, be able to leave that as like a little gift, like pass that on to them to ensure that that project still had a life was really cool. I came up with my own little project for Cabaret Festival in this year. And then when my boss walked in and was just like, had her mind blown about how cool it was, and just like adoration for like, what how it had all come to life was really a really nice moment to be like, Yes, I can do cool things. It's just like there's a little reassuring moments where I was like, Yes, I'm on the right track. I'm doing it. And it feels really nice that people are enjoying the thing that I've helped create. That's the bit that really I get a kick out of like yet the witnessing people enjoy something that I've been so intrinsically involved in creating.
Patrick Hayes 46:05
Yeah, awesome. I think those are great. Like, often, I think those are the things that keep me going in some of those more intense times as well as the smaller moments like we very rarely have those big, like the big fanfare and someone hands you a statue going, you have been the most amazing producer. But seeing people smiling or like at an event or just like really thorough like, genuinely enjoying an event that you've organised or points like I've also had just moments I have not necessarily over the top, but just like artists genuinely thanking me for the work that I've done for them. And those kinds of things that I will always carry around with me. I think so yeah, I think those are great, great suite of things I'm looking for, like, I'm looking forward to hearing about these amazing projects that you are mind blowing people about in Cabaret Festival
Joel Allan 46:59
I mean, look it I'm being a gosh, now I'm overthinking it, it was just a little tiny project, but a lot of people, a few people came to it. And it was really lovely. And I was really happy with it. So
Patrick Hayes 47:14
look, some of them, some of them. Some of my favourite projects I've worked on. I've had like some of the smallest audiences in ways because it's just like, you know, it wasn't for everyone, but it was like a thing that hit a mark for people. And you know, what's like, what's that title of show, which I'm showing some musical theatre nerd here, but like the title of show, like, I'd rather be nine people's favourite thing than 100 people's nine favourite thing. And I, I hold that in my heart. Sometimes for certain projects. It's like the way some of these amazing for some people then mediocre for 100.
Joel Allan 47:47
Totally, I have a really, I'm really fascinated by immersive theatre and immersive experiences. Like I get a real kick out of that. So like, there's this element of me of being like, I know, I've done a good job, when I've impacted how somebody's feeling without them knowing that I've impacted how they're feeling.
Patrick Hayes 48:03
Yeah, I get that. Yeah. On the flip side of proudest, what is one of the biggest mistakes that you've made, if you are willing to share stories about it?
Joel Allan 48:13
Look, it may be a little bit connected to the funding where it's definitely money related.
Patrick Hayes 48:20
Great, great.
Joel Allan 48:22
It was, it was it had to do with like my first gig run as a venue manager and running events there. I did a fringe season at the venue and just thought I knew what I was doing, and was not overly conservative enough in my budgeting. So lost a little bit of money on that. But um, yeah, it. You learned that lesson once I think you, you take that on board, and you make sure that it doesn't happen again.
Patrick Hayes 48:51
Yeah, I, you know, I've had my fair share of budgeting issues, and one of mine was public holiday things, I didn't realise it was a public holiday during budgeting. And then suddenly, one day was a lot more expensive than the other days and the budget got blown out a bit because of that, which you know, if you're working in the in a very, I guess, paying everyone where they should be paid venue, then suddenly that gets really expensive, because suddenly, like someone's getting paid $50 an hour, it's getting paid $100 an hour, all those kinds of points. So yes, or even my other one is just like, you know, a sum, or an algorithm in a spreadsheet is not working in a budget and suddenly I realise it's not counting four or five lines that I've added in because I just added them into the budget and the formula didn't go oh, you added that number and I'm assuming you want me to calculate that number two, then suddenly I realised Oh crap, I'm not counting a few $1,000 Worth in that budget. So your money budget, money mistakes are some of the most common common, but yeah, as you said, you make them once and then you freak out every time now that you're looking at to budget, triple check everything multiple times.
Joel Allan 50:04
That like, I was also starting from scratch, so I was having to, like create my own budget to work from. So like, you know, I was not setting myself up to succeed at all, I tried really, really hard. And I just yet, you know, a beginner's mistake, but like, now like, I feel pretty confident in budgets, I still have a little bit more to understand about, like, overarching operational stuff, but like, show budgets and getting stuff off the ground, I've now done shows and have made money and budgeted correctly. So you know, it's,
Patrick Hayes 50:38
well, some of those things only come with experience. Like, I used to always be in awe of like producers who could estimate artists fees and things like that just like really like off the top of their head and be like, Okay, well, that's 300 for like, 400 for this blah, blah, blah. And I was like, who like, what? How do you know these numbers? Like, I don't know, where I looked this up to go put 2k aside for tech, like what, like, I don't understand any for and then I started like, after four or five years, where can like old people have just done enough of these projects that they're kind of like, okay, it takes approximately this, and this is this. But I do wish there was like a glossary catalogue that just told me exactly how everything costs it all the time. And then that would have made budgeting a lot more easy. But that's not how the world works, unfortunately.
Joel Allan 51:26
And it's definitely not how producing works, there is no guide that you pick up that is like his producing. Do you know what they should do? Like a dummies guide for producing? I don't know what would be in it? Because it would, it would not work. But it would be great if it existed.
Patrick Hayes 51:41
Yeah, all we've got is like and you know, milky has a few of those kinds of resources, like checkboxes or guy like knock guides as in literally like an Ikea building of furniture, step by step, but just kind of skeleton processes trying to like go, these are the things that you should be thinking about. But it's hard, because as soon as you have it for one project, the next project is completely different. And you have to kind of adjust things slightly. So yeah, there's no golden chalice of this producing. There you go.
Joel Allan 52:11
It's interesting that you mentioned that because the mistake that I made with the budgeting on that big project for fringe, I actually ended up winning and best emerging producer for it, because the end product of what I created was so amazing. And I actually was awarded the Best emerging producer by MILKE and got a mentorship for a year afterwards. And so like that was also really great at like reforming some of the things that I mistakes they'd learned and just being able to move forward with it. Like she was really great in those very early stages of like, self doubt after all of that. But yeah, like she put me back on the right path.
Patrick Hayes 52:51
Well, the last, the kind of closing question that we have as well is like kind of linked. But what if you could go back and give yourself one piece of advice at the start of your career? What would it be?
Joel Allan 53:01
I don't know, this is the thing, I fell into it. And I don't know where I'm going with it. I'm just like, but I'm enjoying the journey. The advice that I had was kind of like I brought up earlier, but it's like producing is it's kind of like this pass fail job to like, make sure you're always passing and not failing, but also like really enjoy the moment that you get from it because you get to do some really cool things with it, and be a part of something to just enjoy it because it's kind of fun.
Patrick Hayes 53:34
Yeah. And I think like it's an interesting one of like, with that pass fail mentality as well. Because I think when when I hear that, when I hear those words, I get like I personally get stressed in my mind because I'm like, pass or fail, oh my God, I need two options. But then also looking in an academic lens. Sometimes it's good to understand what's a pass fail versus a graded points, and sometimes your projects, you know, you just need to do the thing and get it up you don't actually need. Not every project is the closing of the Olympics. Not every project is these like, which sometimes like, you know, both you and I deal with anxiety and kind of those points I used to get so freaked out where I was like, I'm getting someone on stage to talk for an hour. Why is my body acting as if someone's going to die if I do something wrong right now? And I don't know why. And then there is that kind of understanding going well, actually, I've got the person up there doing the thing. It's happened, like, Sure, it may have not been a sold out show but we hit the 60% mark that we were aiming for in the budget. You know, tick Done, done. Hit the point and learning to kind of not always I think I had to do a lot of like learning how to gauge that success of just going project was up it covered the budget. Everyone got paid. Awesome. Like Sure. We didn't sell out there wasn't five star reviews in every publication across the city but not every show can do that. Sometimes you just need to be going. Yeah. Cool. I passed. TICK. Yeah. So I think
Joel Allan 55:07
Did you learn anything from it? Yes. Great. If you know that I always am trying to work out what have I learned from doing this past thing? And where are the points that I can get better at? You know?
Patrick Hayes 55:18
Yeah, I think that's a great. It's a great thing. And that's something I've always tried to do even the bad situations. Like, I think you can always learn from any situation, I'm not a big person of like, look on the bright side of everything, because I think some situations are absolutely shit. But I think we can always learn from those situations and always learn something from them and create a better future. In Yeah,
Joel Allan 55:40
I don't I think I'm trying to like, as much as I said, the past thing, I'm more about now trying to work out. Okay, what didn't work, and why didn't it work? And what can I change to make sure that it is different next time around? And I think having just adjusting that little mindset has been great moving, like, for me now, just to be like, Okay, I've recognised these areas of improvement, let's get on to them. And, you know, see how I can make it better next time.
Patrick Hayes 56:07
Right. Well, that seems like a nice kind of an area to end in ahh listeners. I'll be getting Joel to send me some links bio and an image. So you know, have a look there. And if you want to see more about what Joel s doing, or maybe be just checking out the Adelaide cabaret festival that's coming up, because I think it's actually quite big over the next couple of years. It's a lot of different plannings in place for stuff, but
Joel Allan 56:30
There are some secret things they can't talk about right now. But
Patrick Hayes 56:33
I'm sure they're even thinking things that I don't know about, but the whispers on the wind that I've heard, sound exciting. Look at it, put it in the calendar. It's coming. But thank you so much for your time, Joel and absolutely delight having this chain.
Joel Allan 56:50
Thank you so much for having me.
Patrick Hayes 56:52
All right, listeners.Goodbye, and I'll catch you next time.
Laura Milke Garner 56:55
Hey, thanks for listening to the podcast MILKE is your go to for getting your show to the stage. We run industry leading courses, workshops for independent artists and producers covering everything you want to know about producing your show. Want to find out more, head to our website milky.com.au That's Milke.com.au
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
