Laura Milke Garner 0:00
You're listening to a MILKE podcast, we acknowledge the traditional owners of the land of which we operate the Wurundjeri people of the Kulin nation. And with respect to where our collaborators guests and listeners are. We extend our acknowledgement to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander elders past and present.
Patrick Hayes 0:19
Hello, my name is Patrick Hayes, and this is producers in conversation. This podcast is all about a space for producers to discuss share triumphs, experiences and difficulties as we explore the ever elusive question what is a producer? Anyway? I've been in this industry for about 10 years now and I'm still not sure I know the answer. Today I am joined by Charley Sanders, co artistic director of House of Sand as we discuss practices within the art world and how we as producers are trying to create healthier practices in the arts community. We also talk around the difficulties of being a producer within spaces where we might be working with diverse communities where we do not represent that diversity ourselves. Charley, would you like to introduce yourself to our listeners?
Charley Sanders 1:09
Absolutely. Thanks for having me. My name is Charley Sanders. I am a theatre director slash producer slash actor, I suppose in that order. I'm a transgender woman. So she/her pronouns. And I am currently lying on the beautiful grass of the lands of the Ngunnawal people, what we call Canberra, and what indeed, they called Canberra with slightly different pronunciation, but I usually live and work on the lands of the Gadigal in the Eora nation in all of these beautiful countries. And the lands of these ancient cultures that were sort of lucky to be able to live in make art and do things. Yeah, I run a company independent theatre company called House of Sand, and also have done quite a lot of independent producing and producing for predominantly for festivals and particularly the Open Access festival sector. So I was at the Sydney Fringe Festival for three years until the end of 2021. And just finished up a stint at the Sydney World Pride festival on the pride Programme there. So that's kind of where I come to you from in both place and context.
Patrick Hayes 2:18
Oh, wow. Like that's, like very, very busy last couple of years.
Charley Sanders 2:21
Yeah.
Patrick Hayes 2:22
Everything like well, probably that's still like coming up though. Right. Like that's next march? Yep.
Charley Sanders 2:27
Yeah, correct. Yeah. So World Pride is next month when Mardi Gras usually is it kind of sits over the top of Mardi Gras for this one off World Pride year. And so the this is kind of inside our industry stuff, but it will be of interest to this listenership. I think that the pride amplified programme, which is the open access kind of fringe programme within World Pride, it's a little bit similar to a fringe and also includes a lot of community events and a lot of parties and that kind of stuff. And it's being administered and run as a partnership between the Sydney fringe obviously, because we've got the open access, I say we, I was because I was there for so long. But we've got the Open Access kind of expertise in running those kinds of festivals. And then obviously, will pride as an institution has the the queer community and the connections to Mardi Gras. And they're managing the big headline programme, which people would be seeing, getting released and rolling out and doing something and peaches of coming and all of that kind of stuff is kind of WorldPride bag, and we're doing it together. So that's been a really great, really great little gig. But I had a I had a show to direct. So I set it all up, ran the first round of registrations, and then tapped out handed over to my beautiful colleague, Alice Terry, who is running the second round of rego's and then through to rollout. Although I'm hoping fingers crossed, they haven't offered me a job yet, but I'm hoping I'll be back for a couple of months around festival time to see it to fruition
Patrick Hayes 3:50
oh look like like without being engaged with that team or within that space. But just knowing the kind of events I am sure there will be a plethora of work closer to the event
Charley Sanders 4:00
is what I'm thinking to Yeah,
Patrick Hayes 4:03
I actually have never done the Mardi Gras experience which I I'm a I won't say I'm a bad queer man, but I haven't done the Mardi Gras but I have been thinking about trying to come over for a weekend also during the World Pride just to be able to be like oh no, I was there when it came to Australia
Charley Sanders 4:19
If you are gonna do Mardi Gras. I think that will pride is the year to do it. I mean, I I tend not to be at Mardi Gras very often. I've done it a few times. But for a Sydneysider. I'm not very often because I spent seven years living in Adelaide and getting growing to love and adore the Adelaide fringe and festival. And so every year I tend to go into that, and I have a community there and I'm connected to the touring artists at the back every year and so on so forth. And so, so I prioritise that over Mardi Gras and so I miss it most years. But the World Pride programme is absolutely phenomenal. Like it's it's an amazing they're the full arts programme. hasn't been released. I know, almost nothing more than the public. Almost everything was was a surprise to me when it was announced. But what's being announced and knowing Dan Clark's curatorial, I and Ben Graets. I mean, they're both phenomenal. But Dan, particularly, I think, is just one of the the great curators of this country of Performing Arts. And it's going to be for arts people, it's going to be phenomenal is gonna be amazing, amazing, amazing arts programme. And then, like, there are maybe not 100 I keep I keep saying 100 Probably not 100, probably like 60. But there are a lot of parties. There's like five times that night, for 17 nights, you have got your pick on everything. Like it's gonna be, it's gonna be wild. I'm not they're not paying me to say any of this, but it's gonna be wild. And you should be there.
Patrick Hayes 5:47
Yeah, I can. I can only imagine. I think after the very difficult years I had due to lockdown at Midsumma, I took like about a year or so away from any kind of Queer event. I just was like, I love everyone in my community, but I need to not listen to you.
Charley Sanders 6:06
Fair enough.
Patrick Hayes 6:08
And I think hopefully, I'll be the point. But also, my version of that, I guess we also will be representing artists at Adelaide fringe, and then also Comedy Festival, which is just like all half time, but yeah, yeah. Anyway, we could probably keep on talking about this stuff for the rest of the episode. But we should we've got a framework that we stick with. So, Charley, I guess one of the first questions we have is like, what is your definition of a producer?
Charley Sanders 6:37
Yeah, that's such a such a fraught, little question, isn't it because I feel like a producer in it can mean so many things. I've got friends in the music industry, where a producer is the person who makes the track. And, you know, that goes with the the artists beautiful lyrics and melody or, and a producer in mainstage. Theatre is very different to a producer in independent theatre, and so on and so forth. But I think in in its essence, the producer is the person that makes the thing happen in the world, like, a director, for instance, makes the thing happen on the stage. But as someone who does both the producer brain I feel like is the person that does everything outside of the rehearsal room in the studio to make that work. And that can mean so many different things depending on on what other resources you have at your disposal, if you're producing in the independent sector, obviously, that can mean doing literally everything outside of the rehearsal room, if you're producing for the fringe of the sydeny theatre company or world pride or whoever, then that could mean that you've got a marketing team at your disposal and a you know, partnerships team, your disposal or technical team, your disposal. And it's much more about making sure that all those chips keep afloat and sailing, but in my definition of the producer is the person who makes sure the thing happens in the world. And there's a great word in French, because I'm super pretentious, like that. And I like to say things from other languages that don't exist perfectly in English. But there's a great word in French, they talk about the réalisateur, which is which means realiser that, and that it's a role that's kind of like, it may well be a creative role, often réalisateur such as that kind of what her director producers are not necessarily otters in the in the kind of creative sense but in the sense of having ownership. And I suppose that's kind of how I see myself as a producer is that I create and facilitate the creation of work that I want to reach the world and a decent chunk of the time. That's my own work as a director and creative person. And then another decent chunk of the time. That's work that I believe in, or I believe in an ethic at a festival of bringing the work of others to the community and to audiences. So yeah, the person who makes it happen in the world.
Patrick Hayes 9:09
Yeah, I think that's a great point. Because like also, like you were also alluding with me and Laura had some big conversation before we started this podcast because even looking at producers in our own right on just like the different genres as well as you were kind of hinting at were different styles of different kinds of like even moving into other words where like visual arts have more like curators and organisers rather than producers and the different language that kind of influences. Those points and like, yeah, TV, film, radio are a lot more technical based kind of producers and that kind of music and audio sense. But yeah, it's a really interesting, I think. Yeah, setting up the context around the work is definitely yeah, we kind of pick up the little bits in the adapter to make sure that the show actually exists in a general public sense, I guess.
Charley Sanders 10:06
Yeah, absolutely.
Patrick Hayes 10:09
So why did you become a producer?
Charley Sanders 10:12
I'm going to be super candid on that one and not give a fun or interesting answer at all. I became a producer. Well, I suppose it's funnily enough in some ways, I became a producer, because I was a Creator, who wanted my work in the world. And I didn't have a producer easily at my disposal. So I became one, which I think is a pathway that quite a lot of producers take in the first instance.
Patrick Hayes 10:36
Yeah,
Charley Sanders 10:36
I, but but I'm, but I'm different to I think many producers, maybe not even most, and certainly not all, but different to something that producing in and of itself, isn't wasn't originally a passion. My passion was, was making work and, and I wanted to get it out there because, you know, art in a, without an audience is masturbation, but yeah, so that was the kind of initial motivation and then I think I realised over the course of some years producing my own work and beginning to assist friends with producing their work and colleagues that I had respect for and thought they work deserve to be seen that actually, the producers role itself, A can be fun and fulfilling, there's nothing, there's nothing quite thrilling in the same way as, as a balanced budget sheet, or, or a or a perfectly constructed grant application, piece of gratification text or whatever it may be, also, that the producers role can be a creative role, and that it can have a creatively fulfilling element. And so I have kind of moved into a phase where now the reason I produce is to creatively facilitate opportunities for artists that I think are wonderful, including myself to, to share their work and to use my creative brain to in service of the process of getting a work from twinkle in the eye of a creative person to twinkle in the eye of an audience member they leave a theatre or, or a warehouse or a gallery, or whatever. Yeah, so that's, that's why I produced now, which is probably a better answer, or more important answer, if anything, could be considered important these days. Then why I started producing? You know?
Patrick Hayes 12:40
No, I think like, and I think you're right, there is a very common trajectory for a lot of producers, where they are a creative, whether that be the director, artist, or anything within that kind of point where they're making work, and then someone steps up to make that work happen, whether it's in, like you might be a solo artist, you might be in an ensemble, all that stuff. And then most of the time, the trajectory seems to be someone steps up and does it and then people realise that that person has some skills in that specific sense. And then they just kind of keep doing it or get asked to do it by other people. And then suddenly, they're producing five people at like a Fringe Festival and all of that kind of stuff. And suddenly, they're a producer. That's kind of the, like, yardstick, there's only a very few I've ever encountered that, like Laura and I are examples of producers who were kind of we've, we've we've only been producers, that's kind of where we will just start it and just kept doing it, basically. And yeah, I think I know in my room when I asked these questions to people, like I think there are also some people who are like, natural producer sounds like a very cocky statement, but just people who are organisers or passionate around like helping facilitate things. Because like, I'm, in my spare time, I do a lot of Dungeons and Dragons and stuff like that. And someone finally pointed out to me that I keep on becoming the Dungeon Master, because that's effectively a producer for that game. You're the organiser you're setting up you're giving the resources you're providing context, you're enabling all these like artists to explore their own characters and spaces. And yeah, it's something that there is just like a little fire of passion that that really brings out it's really beautiful to see a creative not just an audience enjoying artwork, but also artists and creatives enjoying their work and feeling accomplished there is like a really lovely feeling when that happens.
Charley Sanders 14:35
Yeah, and that's that's become really central to my kind of produce Oriole practice, I suppose, is facilitating healthy and potentially healing creative spaces for artists that I look around our industry and look at it's a lot better than it once was. But as a you know, as a artist from a sexuality and gender minority background and, and with lots of friends and colleagues across all kinds of all of the great breadth of our diversity of our, you know, national community and international community. I, I have noted that the arts is really hard on people, like even harder than the rest of the world, a lot of the time, and not necessarily through anyone's fault. But there are some, there are some dodgy business practices out there. There's some advantage taken of people, and there's certainly some kind of like,un examined methodologies, techniques, business modes, that, that allow retraumatization that allow kind of, you know, not less than ideal circumstances for creative people. And as someone who's been part of that, and party to that, and as someone who earnestly and deeply believes that the arts can be, is offered and can be healing and helpful, and, and good for the world and good for the artist who's doing it. That's become kind of a central thread of my, my work. And I think it's, you know, it's small, little bubble, I think that is quite important work. And I'm far from I'm far from perfect at it , and there's lots of good people doing it. And I have lots of learning to do. And I've made some mistakes in the in the pursuit of that, particularly when serving when attempting to serve diverse communities that I don't have a kind of lived understanding of what their experience or cultural differences but that's the I think that's the Endeavour is to make art to make art making a joyous and healing experience for the artists and for the audience, even if sometimes the subject matter is is pretty dark and fucked up and Wild, to allow it to be to be helpful. And, and healing, especially, especially for the artists because I think the audience have their own agency and in the choice of how they see work, but especially for the artist.
Patrick Hayes 17:18
Yeah. Oh, absolutely. And I think there is, yeah, I think it takes it takes a village to make that change happen. And it has been incrementally changing even from my time in the industry, where I've seen a lot more people advocating for healthier practices. And, you know, more care, I guess, is probably a strong word. But I was even talking to another producer friend, last week, I think, actually and I like and I listened to a lot of like cult podcasts where they kind of cover cults, and they do like a list of like, what classifies as a cult for them. And honestly, everything that they said, they set like said, I was like, they're maybe not the entire art sector, but there's definitely like, sections of the art sector that I'm like, Yeah, you know, there's a figurehead normally in power, that's kind of promising things that never fully happen. And people give up work, they get separated from their personal lives by work, and they get distanced from friends outside of that community and all of these things, and I was going yeah, there is definitely some unhealthy things that especially in the emerging when you're learning and kind of learning which opportunities to say yes or no to and I used to always give lectures at like universities around like, I think there's a call it like the five different currencies, where it was kind of and Lord talks around, like finding your way with projects and making sure you know exactly why you're doing a project that you know, kind of like, you know, there is money, but there is experience and joy and all of these other kinds of things, but you should be making sure that you're at least getting a couple of those in our project and not just being used and those kind of situations. But
Charley Sanders 18:59
I think , I think that's right, I mean, I have that that finding your why thing that Laura has talked about her, her boot camps and stuff that many of which, you know, are the places where I've gained much of my skill as a producer. I think that that's become really integral to me in when I'm whether I'm doing a project as a producer or a creative, what's my why in it. And I think then the next step, it's so important and the next step of that too is to be transparently informed and knowledgeable about what you are sacrificing or what you're risking or giving up to do to gain those things and and to go in with eyes open to all those choices. And I think the the artist has or whoever it is the person making the choice to do the project has the responsibility to weigh those things honestly and and go in to any project with an open heart and knowledge of and accepting of the circumstances that they going into, but the producer, in particular, the producer has the responsibility, I think, and it's not always the case, to ensure that that is a transparent transaction that they are letting people know that, you know, this is, for instance, this is a co op show, you probably won't make a great deal with money, the majority of the box office will end up back paying off the costs of the work, it'll probably be a few 100 bucks, but we will make sure that you are looked after in the rehearsal room that it is a joyful experience, that we're flexible around your other work. And underneath, you know, whatever the situation may be, or it might be like, yes, we can pay you a minimum, but we are going to take over your life for the next eight weeks, and you will be at our beck and call on demand. And that's because you're getting paid equity that is, you know, the gig. I mean, it's not, I wouldn't advocate that being the gig, everyone has lives. And, you know, yes, we've got an artist at the moment who we're working with, who's got a eight year old daughter and a somewhat unwell mother that both of whom she lives with, and is the carer for. And despite being paid equity minimum, we have obviously made allowances for all of those life circumstances, as as is our as our ethics kind of demand that we do and care for this this wonderful, wonderful artist. But, you know, I think transparency, more so than the situation, although the situations themselves can always be improved. And we can always be seeking to improve those situations and have more care in the situations we provide. A big part of the producer's role is to provide that transparency to artists and make sure that they're able to make kind of early on in the process during hiring and whatever, and casting but make sure that artists are able to make those decisions from a place of informed consent, basically, tend to be part of that project, even to the extent I don't think I've ever known a producer to do this. And I don't work with people who I think are abusive. But were I being offered a gig with a director or leader that was wonderful in a genius, but a little bit abusive, for instance, then I would very much value the producer saying to me, this is gonna be a great thing for all of these reasons, but you're going to have to work with a bit of an asshole. And, you know, probably they wouldn't phrase it that way. But I think that's really integral really integral to the producers work. Yeah,
Patrick Hayes 22:30
yeah, I think the closest I've ever had to something similar to that is I was once working in a festival where I had an international artist, where I was supporting, and they were, they were just an awful person, like, you know, they could create beautiful art, but they were just an awful person. And I had to hire production staff to support them while they were here. And I did I did that kind of meeting where I was like, Look, here are the things that I've experienced. Also, what I'm going to do now is and I kind of positioned it as like, what I want to do is leave you in space, and I can throw me under the bus, like use my name like mud, I don't really care, I give you full permission, whatever makes the system work, best, give me a call every time you need like something on the budget approved or not approved. And I can say no. But what I'm more concerned about is that they're not being awful to you on site and creating that space and kind of, we had systems in place. And I was like, you can let me know, we'll figure it out. You're not meant to be in this. And you know, once again, they were very lovely to the production staff, because I was often the production staff are the ones that can make stuff happen. While the producer is the one saying no, but yeah, it's a very interesting kind of skill set to have, I think and to create those safe spaces. And I think you're right, transparency is the biggest. Yeah, in those places.
Charley Sanders 23:51
I mean, at House of Sand, we kind of have a you know, policy of no assholes, and, and in in a more kind of fruitful way we actually it's in our code of conduct and we take our Code of Conduct really seriously that we believe that the best person for the job is the best person for the room, not just the best person for the role. Yeah, and and we take that really, really seriously. We don't Brooke divaism more kind of bad, you know, bad Collegium behaviour, because you're famous. So because you're this that or the other. Yeah, you've got to be you gotta be the right person for the room. You know, there are times where we all have to work with people that you know, maybe maybe not through being an asshole, but maybe through some trauma of their own that they're dealing with or haven't fully gotten through or some challenge or just you know, they're trying really hard and you know, getting getting educated but haven't yet got there. They're a little you know, insensitive or whatever it may be and working If you choose to work with those people working with those people to nuance and improve and refine and better their behaviours, and and also working with the people that they work with to ensure their safety and to create systems and, and, you know, ensure that they're being made informed and then protected as best as possible. Possibly Can I think? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.
Patrick Hayes 25:25
Well, we're kind of talking around the skills. And this is obviously a very big skill that we've been talking about, we think, Yeah, is there any other top core skills that you would say the producer needs to have?
Charley Sanders 25:34
I mean, there's few, there's some, there's some logistical ones, you know, there's, there's the one has to be organised, it's a job that requires a fairly high degree of organisation good with spreadsheets is pretty much integral. And, and I think, for me, it's about, it's about the skill of keeping balls in the air of the troubles. But you've got to be the person who can have your eye on you know, whether you're doing it yourself, or you have a team out doing it, you've got your eye on the marketing got their eye on publicity, you've got your eye on, you know, within that the ad spend and the, and the posting, and firing and the socials, and you've got your eye on what's happening in the creative space in the rehearsal room or studio, having your eye on any partnerships on production on technical and making sure that no ball gets dropped. So it's that kind of organisation or thinking weblike thinking and, and kind of capacity to multitask, and also willingness to do the thing that picks up the ball that's about to be dropped. I think it's a big part of a producer's job, especially in the independent sector, is the willingness to do whatever is needed, and whatever you haven't, haven't got facility for, to plug up the holes in the team. Because almost no team. I mean, like I was working at the Sydney Theatre Company earlier in the year as an actor, and there were times when, you know, the producers would need to step across into something that could be seen as technical management stage management. For a moment, I mean, you know, it's an incredibly well resourced company, so that doesn't have comparatively speaking by this country standards. So that doesn't happen nearly as much there. But right up to that kind of fully professional level, the producer needs to be the one who's like, Yep, I'll jump in and, man the bar at the doughnuts function because the BB technical in sick or you know, whatever it might be. So that willingness, which is a skill in itself, I think, to enter into those spaces with joy, because you know, you're in service to the hole and to the, to the product, even if, I mean, you know, no one loves pouring champagne. I mean, some someone probably does, but no one loves almost no one loves pouring champagne to the donor function. You'd much rather hear their stories about the dangers of drinking champagne, of course, but to go, Well, no, I'll do that thing. Because I want these people to have their champagne because their their relationship to this work and their funding is incredibly important to us, so that we can get this work to the audience, you know, and being able to go into that with joy, I think is a skill, I think is a real skill. And of course, there are lots of other skills, but a little bit like most education, I feel like there's a few baseline things. And then the rest, you can kind of learn as you go along as the skill is, you know, when you're asked to pour a glass of champagne, you can watch the person who's already pouring glass to him in order to tip the glass to the side. You can pick the other stumbling way you can learn how to use Canva. You know, you can figure out how to use Squarespace and built on a website or you know, you can you can put a state manager and go How do I run a rehearsal room when you know when I need to run a rehearsal room for a day. But those baseline skills of being organised, having your be able to keep your mind across the many, many things. And then having the willingness to go into any of those fields with joy, and learn to do it as best you can and plug the gaps, I think are the kind of they're the instrumental ones for me for sure.
Patrick Hayes 28:55
Yeah, I think honestly, I think you hit the nail on the head, like the one main core thing I would say producers need to be as like, non stagnant, like we'll be able to be flexible and to learn. That is our main thing. Once you have that skill down. Everything else can kind of fall into place. And you can develop and go as you said, go along and catch the balls as they're dropping and those kinds of situations. But yeah, the producers I've seen that have really struggled have been the ones that have been very, like stoic and not willing to kind of learn in many different ways when things change. But you know, our industry is one that fluctuates so much anyway, like things change. Marketing is changing a lot at the moment from print media to more digital and advertising and, you know, you've got to really keep up with the times or else it's easy to get left behind I guess as well.
Charley Sanders 29:47
I think that's absolutely right. It's it's it's a role that requires kind of almost kind of unending flexibility necessarily physically over that probably helps in some some Projects, if you've got to, you know, crawl under a certain, you know, put bolts in things or whatever, or for that matter, you know, run a roomful of dancers, as I'm talking at the moment, that kind of intellectual mental flexibility to, to dive in and, and, and as you say, keep up with the times keep up with the breadth of the industry too I mean, the, you know, I've never produced for the Sydney Theatre Company or for a mainstage company. But I have, you know, friends and colleagues in those fields and their job has massively different requirements to an independent producer. And if you want to be able to move across those fields, potentially there's some places where you can make a bit of a wage rather than being you know, the person on whom the profit depends, like you only invested one isn't the independent sector, then then that flexibility is so integral, I think the thing that I've learned, too, is that people will know, generally speaking, you might, you might get a few arseholes along the way, but generally speaking, people will know that not everything can be your field of expertise. But as with all roles in the arts, but I particularly for producers, people will be thankful to you for for going in and plugging those gaps. I always when we were at acting school, my undergraduate degrees in acting and I were in second year, the first year of second year, we had to do like a project at the end of the first term, where we did a little bit of sewing classes, we ran the lights for something about how to run a lighting where we learned to run a soundboard, we we deliver your sewing skills, we manage the costumes, we manage the stage, we did all of the other jobs that are inside the rehearsal room. And we and our teachers told us, you know, point blank this is so you develop respect for this. And so that, if you're working on a project, when there's a little gap in the team there you can jump in, and you can be the person that people want back that people want to work with. Because you've got that little bit of extra skill, you can, you know, strum a few chords on the guitar or bash out a few chords on the piano. Or you can, you know, run the lighting board when the dramaturgy requires that the lighting boards onstage and a performer has to run it or whatever it is. That means you're like you're a value add beyond your central practice. And I think that exactly the same thing is true of producers, our main thing might be organising everyone else and might be wrangling budgets and grant applications and, you know, funding and venue bookings, and that kind of stuff. But if you can talk informally to the marketers, because you've done a bit of it for yourself, and be on a level with them and jump in when they need a bit of a hand. Or you can do the same with the technical production staff or the or have a Creative Conversation with the director about like, what in this work is is actually going to resonate with audiences right now, one of the things that I'm having a conversation with myself and my choreographer and CO artistic director, we're talking a lot about what audiences need right now. And it's not my director's brain or the choreographers job necessarily, to be attuned to the mood of the audience, you know, but as a producer, it's very much your job, you know, creatives are able to go above and beyond service to themselves. And that's all for the better. But as a producer, you need to be able to go actually, you know, for instance, right now, in the wake of COVID, and all of the stresses that we've had in the isolation, people legitimately need work that warms the soul. And that can be funny work. And comedy is doing wonderfully at the moment. So it should be because you know, there's wonderful comic comedic art out there across all sorts of art forms. But it can also just be a heart, a heartwarming, tender, work, you know, and having that conversation with artists, being able to see those things and help creators just sculpt that is is integral. Yeah.
Patrick Hayes 33:53
Looking at all those skills, what, like, what is one thing that you struggle with as a producer? And how do you combat that?
Charley Sanders 34:00
I think one of the things that I struggle with is just how much there always is to do it, like it's a job, it's one of those roles that could go forever, you could just keep working forever and ever and ever and ever and ever. Amen. And you've kind of got to know when to close your laptop and go to bed. Because you know, otherwise, you could just work through the night. And you've also got to know what work to prioritise. And I struggle with that I've only really recently learned that my email inbox is somebody else's to do list. And that's not always my top priority. I used to think I had to clear my inbox first and respond to all the things and then other stuff that is way more important to actually what's going on would get lost and missed or be rushed or whatever. So that that prioritisation of a job that could go forever, I think is an accepting that you could always To do more, and you won't get everything done. That's a big one for me. And I'm, I'm just now starting to learn some really solid techniques for, for actually doing that skill and I still struggle with it substantially.
Patrick Hayes 35:16
Yeah, I think it's an ongoing one myself that I've been learning because there's also like a level where you, you come to terms with your own like priority list as well. But then you'll also be working with like another external producer, or someone who has a very different priority list. Yeah. Like sometimes you get like urgent emails where I look at him, like, is this really urgent? But.....
Charley Sanders 35:37
how urgent is this exactly? Is it kind of, you know, end of the world nuclear war urgent? Or is it just? Yeah, totally.
Patrick Hayes 35:46
Why am I getting three emails about this on a Friday? That's not Yeah, I don't understand why you're stressing about this. One thing. I don't. Okay. This is a Monday problem by the one for me. Like, literally last night, I was booking them with like, flights, because flights are getting so astronomically more expensive, which then was really interesting. That that was like an external pressure put on where I was like, well, actually, I should just like, work an extra couple of hours tonight. Because tomorrow, there'll be more expensive. And yeah, that's gonna save us a little bit of money to do that. So it's really interesting that level of Yeah, dance. Sorry, you're gonna say something?
Charley Sanders 36:21
No, absolutely. I think the I cannot. I can't remember what that was. I was gonna say, so doesn't matter. We'll move
Patrick Hayes 36:28
Fair enough. Fair enough. So you're in the middle of putting on a show. You've got rehearsals, you're one weekend, as we kind of caught up a little bit before the recording, how is it going in the current climate of 2022, which I will say for listeners, we're recording at the start of November 2022? Just so you know, in the grand scheme of things, what is happening in the world
Charley Sanders 36:49
where we're at in the world? Because you know, we could all have changed by tomorrow.
Patrick Hayes 36:54
Yeah, midterms are happening in America? Who knows? What's my stuff?
Charley Sanders 36:59
Like two days away? Isn't it?
Patrick Hayes 37:00
Yeah.
Charley Sanders 37:01
Yeah. Look as as, as a creative or as a producer creatively, it's going really, really well. And it's quite we have, well, I suppose, as a producer as well, we've created an environment where we have this beautiful creative freedom, because we're working with we're working in Canberra, but with majority away artists, majority artists who are not at home. And so this is something that we do fairly regularly, we are, it's kind of like everyone's on summer camp, which is really nice. So that's been really wonderful. In the end, the show's going fantastically, although, as I've said to a couple of people recently, I, I won't as it's a brand new work, so I won't be quite sure whether the show works until the first company run next Friday. And by then it'll be far too late to turn around If it doesn't work, so we'll have to figure out a way to make it work. But that's the joy of making new work. As a producer, it's hard. It's, it's rough at the moment, everyone is Everyone is exhausted, and you want to do on a to that exhaustion. And there are there are kind of there are as many kinds of exhaustion as there are people. But there are two really different major kinds of exhaustion, there's, there's the independent artist exhaustion, which is the exhaustion of stasis, and not enough opportunity and no money and being on, you know, government payments for a stint when they might not have been otherwise, and having no work and making YouTube videos for two years and all of that stuff. And then there's the salaried Administrative Manager exhaustion of having worked 80 hours a week for the entirety of the COVID lockdown era, which is, you know, the the level of exhaustion that I'm in, having been at Fringe during those times, and they have really different effects. And really greater sensitivity is required to, you know, ensuring that people are happy and safe and all that stuff that we were talking about. But on the flip side, the wonderful, wonderful thing is that we are able to gather in space again now and people are really appreciative of that, when you've facilitated and that and that love is, you know, shines and twinkles through. And it's so nice to be in a creative space with creative people doing creative things. So it's a mixed bag, but you know, mostly for the better.
Patrick Hayes 39:25
Yeah, I think, like it's really interesting, because I got more, I've got obviously more of that experience of i guess salaried exhaustion, but I think everyone, what I've been saying recently is it feels like everyone's hitting that December wall, but in October at the moment, like we're all hitting that end of the year wall specifically for 2022. So lately, in that longer COVID locked down phase, it was really interesting. And one of the reasons I kind of wanted this podcast to exist was because as a programmer, I was talking to a lot of different producers to create a festival but all of them were having, like mental breakdowns, and not talking about it with each other or in public spaces, because we were the fortunate few that had salaries. So there was this very like, which I guess I likened it to depression because to me, that's what depression does. It's like very isolating, and it makes you feel like you're the only one experiencing that stuff, because you can't talk about it or share it. And just like I've, you know, I talk to all these different venue producers and stuff like that, who are literally, like, for two years, we were trying to figure out how to make art happen in Melbourne. Like it was just, yeah. Turning up and trying.
Charley Sanders 40:39
Yeah, it was wild. It was a wild two years from the side of those institutions that yes, we were so lucky to have salaries, I was so lucky to have a salary at that time. Absolutely. And, you know, like, up in Sydney, at the Sydney fringe where I was in that office over the two years of the kind of worst of COVID, we are September festival was cancelled every two years running, but we we didn't, you know, sit down and do nothing. We were facilitated artists, residency programmes, and we did online programmes, and we did everything we could to get money out the door to artists to get some work to happen while we were in lockdown, or we were in kind of semi lockdown. And then because it was summer, because we had been in lockdown in the winters, the two winters, essentially, and we were free, or in the two summers, we then did big summer programmes. And so like, I, I actually part of the reason that I moved on from my role at Fringe was time anyway for me to get back to my creative practice. But I was exhausted because I had to two years, two full years, without any kind of holiday break, Kerri Glasscock, who is just a Wonder Woman, I don't know how she does it. But she did the same, then this February, and just now got to the end of the first significant festival back after the two years off and is about to like right now, I think or at the beginning of December, go on her first holiday since Christmas. 2019. Yeah. And so I think like, while while our colleagues who were unsalaried at that time, or were, you know, gigging have, like all of my most kind of empathy and sympathy for the particular kind of stress and trauma that they went through in lockdown, and through losing all of their work, and I can't, I can only imagine what that must have been like, I think I would counsel those artists who haven't yet heard of this story, to maybe put give a little bit of give a little bit of, you know, additional just kind of care room to the people who did have a salary. But my God, we worked hard, and it was just wildly weird for three years and utterly exhausting trying to, you know, help help help get some salaries or some wages back to back to all of our colleagues who didn't didn't have those salaried positions anyway, you know, soapbox moment, but no, no, early on, there was a bit of animosity between those two groups. I think it's healing now. And I think that's wonderful. People are hearing each other's stories in really beautiful ways. But which is all for the better. But yeah, it's, it's a lesson in how even kind of, you know, an unintended object or something, we've got no one to blame, like COVID Can, can almost inadvertently kind of draw, like, drive wedges, where, really, there shouldn't be wedges, especially if we're not communicating in these ways, and being honest about our experiences, and meeting other people's experiences. We've kind of open hearts and minds.
Patrick Hayes 43:43
Yeah, absolutely. And I think like, you know, this is not definitely this conversation is not meant to, like place a value on who suffered more, or any of those kinds of points, cuz I think everyone had their own personal journeys. Absolutely. I mean, two, three years, and
Charley Sanders 43:56
I think we can just, we can just all agree that we've been through a massive global trauma, and everyone has had a pretty fuckin shit time over the last three years. Yeah, there have been some beautiful silver linings. But basically everyone deserves each other's empathy and sympathy and exactly what we've gone through.
Patrick Hayes 44:11
I think the main thing is, is like I want to say for any of the producers who were in that sort of kind of position of still continuing working and, like, for me, the example I always kept using was, I was working 40 to 60 hour weeks, but with no actual ticking of any boxes ever. Like no, I have done this thing, because I'm still in limbo for two years. And that was like two years of just never seeing an artist smiling, performing like those things that I really liked my fire to passion, my producing, I just didn't get to see. Yeah, and that made it really hard.
Charley Sanders 44:47
And those kinds of Capstone moments in the arts are so important. I mean, I've other other industries, some other industries, have the many other industries artificially manufacture them and have awards or have you know, Christmas parties or whatever it is that they do, I don't know, I work in this industry, but, but in the arts, it's those Capstone moments, those opening nights, those, you know, your festival opens or, or you have your showing it your creative development, they are intrinsic to the way we work we work on, you know, cycles of creative production are cyclical like that, and they and they go from, you know, Genesis and the kind of, you know, birthing of an embryo to, to these big celebratory kind of Capstone moments on any given project. And those cycles can be annual, like the festivals often are, or they can be kind of two or three months, like creative projects often are for the creative team. But they, they have that shape to them. And we're, it's kind of, it's almost in our blood, and it's certainly in our habit, to need those things. And we just didn't get it for so long. And, and that's, that's really, really wearing, I think, on the soul, for everyone in the industry. And it's really, I mean, I think this this is one of the things that lovely about the project I'm working on at the moment, we're not quite there yet, but I think we can safely say that we will get to an opening night. Finally, after three we this project actually we started working on in during Black summer bushfires in January 2020, just before COVID. So it has been with us for this entire time we did the first development here during Black summer. We've half the team, we've been down the hill from Sydney. So we were like, you know, having to tie our runs to when there wasn't any fire on the highway. And then we did two creative developments primarily by zoom over the course of over the course of COVID the third creative development, the dancers were in the studio, but the actors and everyone else was on Zoom. And this is the first time we've all been back together in the studio's since that very first relevant January 2020. So I can't quite fathom what it's going to be like to get finally get to this opening night, after three years. And it being with all of that COVID time I think it's going to be it's going to be like giving birth, you know, when you're six weeks overdue, I think, ya know, I think metaphorical things, not literally, of course,
Patrick Hayes 47:09
I think there's a lot of artists that have gone through that process as like who were in the middle of creative processes for any kind of show that got suddenly ripped out of them. A lot of them are kind of coming to completion in the current festivals happening at the moment. And it's been really interesting to see that. Some of them. I've also talked to others who really hated that process. And they're just like, I just need to get this thing out. And it's now done. And now I can move on with my life. And that's been really interesting to watch as well.
Charley Sanders 47:34
I was I was feeling like that until we got back into studio and being in the studio is just so much joy and fabulousness that it's totally abated in his last week, which is been amazing.
Patrick Hayes 47:43
Absolute like I'm very glad to hear that that's a great, great outcome just aware of time. So we might move on to asking how you go about funding your projects normally.
Charley Sanders 47:55
Yeah, so I mean, as a I'll talk primarily from the House of Sand perspective in this case, because those are the projects that I have kind of near unilateral control over the funding for we work very much on the grant cycle. So I believe the government should fund art. And so I put my money where my mouth is, and I asked the government to give me money. And very fair, very fair. Yeah. And look, I obviously we have we have a degree of of boxoffice dependency, and we have some a small circle of incredibly dedicated and wonderful donors. And we have partnerships with other organisations like AusArts ACT are working with us on that was Friday the current project, but broadly, that we won't, we basically won't do our project until we get a grant at least for the creation if not for the production these days. Because it's just the the style of work that we make that is while there is a substantial market for it and a growing market, it's contemporary performance of the of the dance and theatre is somewhat esoteric variety, and it's just not commercially viable to try and make that work without some government without some substantial external support. In Australia, at least. So yeah, so we work on the grant cycle, but I've worked across, you know, pure box office shows that are, you know, either Co Op or very small teams, and that can be really, really rewarding. But of course the risk is that you'd never know what you're gonna make until the back end. So we we have opted to you know, stay within our ethical lane and say we think the government should fund that so we will make out that the government funds and
Patrick Hayes 49:45
look, it's it's a staple like I know that Winston Churchill was that all like a very awful figurehead in many history lenses, which is very good to bring that out. But um, you know, that quote that gets trotted out of like when he was asked whether he would do fund art, he's like, Why are we fighting this war for? kind of thing.
Charley Sanders 50:01
What are we going to war for? If not to fund art? Exactly.
Patrick Hayes 50:04
So I think it's, yeah, I think it should be a government thing that improves the lives like countless studies on how our impacts communities and lives and everything for the better. And it should be a government funded resource, as we say, as all coming.
Charley Sanders 50:22
Yeah, and I should go, just I should say, to get up on my soapbox just once more, very briefly, that it should also be totally arm's length from government, the decision of who gets funded, it should be assessed and decided by peers in the industry or some other new system yet to be invented. But this the thing that really concerns me at the moment, actually, COVID was a pretty good time for money in the arts. But all of the new money that got injected, I'm thinking of the rise fund, and I'm thinking of a lot of the state based funds were ministerial discretion. And that can lead to propaganda. And that can lead to pork barreling. And that can lead to all sorts of horrible things that we don't want having our politics or our art. So yes, the government should fund that. And the government shouldn't decide who gets the money. The industry and the community, the arts community, and the audience community, to a certain extent, should decide who gets because that's how you strike the balance between government funding for the art and government control of art.
Patrick Hayes 51:21
Yeah, yeah, I think it is. It's a really interesting conversation around those elements. And yeah, I agree. I think there should be a lot of like, peer support and kind of navigating through all of that. Yeah,
Charley Sanders 51:36
yeah, look, I think the Australia Council is one of the great the great treasures of our nation, and one of the great, one of the great arts development models, obviously modelled by the British Council originally. And look, it's far less than perfect. And there's always room for improvement. But I think protecting that funding body, and its arm's length model of funding, and, and encouraging the encouraging, it's to be legitimately arm's length at every turn, and working towards similar funding bodies at the state level, some have them some don't, some have the body, but not the other linctus. You know, someone's hopefully down the line is, you know, we're not we're not here to talk about advocacy and activism. But if there are producers and artists out there who are inclined towards an advocacy bent or an activist bent, I think that that is a central piece of work that we must keep in our sights, for sure.
Patrick Hayes 52:31
Yeah, absolutely. We're kind of getting towards the last couple of questions. I think we've talked quite enough about like how important we think producers are in the sector. So I don't think we need to maybe read
Charley Sanders 52:41
Absolutely. I think that's been iterated
Patrick Hayes 52:44
we've covered that one. So now we kind of got the last couple of two, we're going to ask like your proudest and like, one of the mistakes that you've made, if you have one. So I guess like, when it comes to producing what is one of your proudest moments that you've had in your career?
Charley Sanders 52:57
I think my proudest is this moment. I mean, right now, actually, this work is the first work that I have produced, I believe, that I have produced independently, I should say, outside of a salaried context where I have been able from, go to Whoa, for a brand new work of large scale with a large ensemble to ensure that everyone was paid industry standard for essentially every moment of their work, as having grown up from an indie Co Op, you know, little baby producer. And having developed this over as I think I mentioned over three creative developments, and now a full length rehearsal period, that is a lot of money, it's somewhere in the tune of $250,000 of cash, and $350,000, of economic value that we've been able to create and generate and take through to artists, and that the level of work in that is wild. And of course, the product is something that I'm so incredibly proud of, even though I don't know if it'll totally work yet, I'll still be proud of it. And, but but being able to facilitate that, that style, and that level of creation is something that, you know, I'm incredibly proud of and to find all that funding and, and bring it all together over that huge period of time has been one of the greatest joys and privileges and prides of my of my wee life. Mistake wise. I won't share the details that I won't share any of the names because I think there's some there's still some tenderness around this, but in the industry, in general and among these particular artists, but sometimes over the last few years, there was a project that I was involved in where I was seeking very hard to be of service to a disadvantaged community, that was not my own disadvantaged community, it wasn't the trans and gender diverse community. And I was earnestly seeking to be of service to that community and create a lot of opportunities for them. And I was earnestly seeking to engage in in consultation, and to bring members of that community into the leadership and the control of those opportunities. And I didn't fully realise the depth and, and tiny nuance of some of the cultural differences. That because I, because it was, is not my community that I'm a part of, it's not my lived experience to know, their world, I didn't fully understand those things. And I made a series of small missteps, that I deeply regret, and that I now know a bit better on by also, I'm sure that there will be things that I don't know in the future. And, and I think I've learned that it's even more integral to do more of that community consultation even earlier in the process than I thought and to and to create teams. Before you even begin that before you like before, it's even anything more than twinkle of an idea that include representation and agency from all the groups that you're trying to work with. Because if you get even one step beyond that, and we were only one or two steps beyond that, you you run the risk of making some missteps and I don't I don't think anyone was, you know, horrendously harmed in the end, and I made huge learnings I don't think anyone was was, was even not horrendously harmed in the end, which I'm very thankful for. But it's incredibly important to be working with, and, and placing the people who you're seeking to create opportunity for and with at the centre and the beginning of that process. Yeah, that's slightly roundabout because I don't want to talk about the specifics.
Patrick Hayes 57:05
And I can empathise Yes, pretty strongly because like as like, for any of those viewers who don't know who I am, by now, I'm like a cis white male, queer man. But it's a space that I've worked in a lot, I've got a very gentle temperament. I've got a very mentoring temperament, which often means that in my world of working, I've often worked within communities where I don't necessarily identify myself and have had to kind of be an advocate and support those programmes, which often I used only to get through like one or two years and those roles before I'd be like, hey, this feels weird that I'm the advocate role for this community, because I'm not part of the community. So let's Yeah, analyse that, but it's also one of those, it's one of the biggest learnings I think when you're in that space is also is you will miss step that's going to happen because it's impossible for someone to know exactly how another community works and like something that you don't necessarily identify as important. Or clock is something actually very crucially important and all that stuff, even when I went to Midsumma and obviously, you know, we both exist within the queer community. But there is a choir of voices and perspectives that kind of exist, which isn't often always a choir, it's actually a shouting deathmatch, sometimes. But, you know, you say things in one way, and then that kind of impacts another community in a very different way. And it's a really, it's a tight rope. And I think one of the skills that I've ever learned is just going, yep, made a mistake. Adapting. Moving on, I've apologised, I'm doing the things. Because like, that was the also the other end of the spectrum now is to always find as you know, someone working within a festival, someone does the wrong thing. And then suddenly, it becomes it's not like that little incident was one thing, but then it's like, we suddenly have five or six meetings of like apology meetings around this one incident, which is then just like making these poor staff members a lot more uncomfortable around it. And yeah, I think it's always going to be a learning process, and all we can do is our best in some of those spaces.
Charley Sanders 59:17
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think you're absolutely right. And it's so important to be able to apologise and you know, right the wrong version and, and move forward into to healing especially in queer community where as you say, we see WorldPride were released some I can't remember exactly what it was some new tickets or to various things or some new shows and and there was some dissent within the community. As as there isn't a diverse community of of, you know, of a level of diversity of as the LGBTQIA plus community and someone within the office I will reveal who said to me, you're not doing your job if there aren't some angry queers because As you know, there's so so much variety of opinion and belief, but, but also to know that your mistakes or your wonderful opportunities for learning. I mean, I think, you know, coming back to prop prideful moments and moments of, of real fulfilment, I think, having learnt from that mistake that I sort of described in a roundabout way a moment ago, I was so proud upon leaving Sydney fringe to have been instrumental in facilitating the creation of three new staff roles within the significant festival and access a year round access coordinator role. That is, persons living with disability identified role and will always and in perpetuity, be filled by a person with a disability and a First Nations producer and a First Nations coordinator role that similarly our First Nations identified and will always have in perpetuity be filled by people and leaders and emerging leaders from our First Nations community. And, you know, having having, having learnt from a mistake and learnt from the world around me, I can now say without fear of contradiction that I was instrumental in that really beautiful, and maybe a scooch overdue step forward on the part of the Sydney fringe, which, you know, has a staff of like, six people so prioritising at this stage was something that I'm so proud. I'm so proud of Kerri and I for making a priority at this at this time and bringing to fruition. So you know, the mistake is also the opportunity to have your next great moment of pride and success and contribution.
Patrick Hayes 1:01:38
Yeah, absolutely. I think, yeah, I've had some of my biggest learnings within those spaces from mistakes. Well, our final closing question is based around if to go back and give yourself one piece of advice at the beginning of your career, or somewhere in that starting point, what would it be,
Charley Sanders 1:01:57
I think it would be the piece of advice, which I give, to actually kind of give two?
Patrick Hayes 1:02:04
I'm not going to, I won't,
Charley Sanders 1:02:06
I think the first would be to learn as quickly as you can, what you're good at and what you want to do. Because if you don't want to do it, you will never get good at it, and you will not prioritise it, and then delegate away the thing that you aren't, are the least good at and want to do the least first, I held on to doing my own marketing, because it seemed like too much of an expense to employ a marketing manager or whatever, for way too long. And I just can't stand doing marketing. I hate it I'm not good at. And so now I say to people, when they're approaching me about producing something, I will absolutely produce this for you. But I will only, I will only work on a project where we've got a marketing manager, because I'm just terrible at it. And I know I'm not going to do the show a service. And I'm no, I'm not going to do myself a service by doing that role. So yeah, learn, learn what you love what you like, and don't like, and, and what you're good at, not good at as quickly as you can with with a, you know, lens of of truth on Clear, clear sight, and then delegate away the other stuff as efficiently and as effectively as you can, wherever possible. And then if you need to step back in for a moment, you'll you'll hate it less, you know, when the when there's a little hole in the team and you have to plug the hole, you will, you'll hate it less, because you're only doing a little bit. And the other thing that I would say is when it comes down to the crunch. To make something happen, you've either got to spend money or time on it. Know that and figure out which one you can afford. And spend that on it. Nothing happens without huge amounts of money or huge amounts of time. And if you've got neither, you might need to reduce the scale of your work. Or you might need to reduce some of your immediate expectations and do and really assess and analyse how much money have you got? What can you afford to spend? On what and how much time have you got? And what can you afford to spend on what and if you don't have any time, you will need some more money. And if you don't have any money, you'll need some more time.
Patrick Hayes 1:04:08
Yeah, absolutely. I think that's a great, that's a great really standpoint because like I think also sometimes producers forget that we are often the ones that people are delegating work to, like that's kind of why we exist, we are taking over work that people either see as their own weakness or that they just don't want to do but then we kind of forget that that also applies to us and that there are certain skill sets that like marketing is a great example. I think in those spaces because people have done degrees in marketing. They have done a lot of work in marketing. Sometimes people work full time in marketing positions. Of course, they're going to be better at it or have a bit more of a knowledge than me who's just like as you like, you know, working on Canva or Pixlr, which are great skills to have great stock gaps, but you know, being the sole person to market, massive shows or multiple seasons or things like that. Sometimes it's worth just paying that little bit extra for even, a consultation or something they like going on which I think that's also something I'd add to that is like, if you don't have a lot of money, and you just want to like a little bit of, you know, help, sometimes a consultation is worth its weight and gold, just someone to look over you be like, if you have a producer friend or things like that, they usually go, Hey, can I just pay like for an hour, or we can sit down and go over my budget or someone you know, who's like really good at grant applications, and you just want to pay them a little bit to kind of look over your grant applications or something like that, like those things are immeasurable, and really help build your own skill set up slowly as well. So you might be able to start doing those tasks more confidently.
Charley Sanders 1:05:41
Yeah, absolutely. And if you're not yet good at that you quite enjoy and you want to get good at it. Absolutely. I think that in particular is where consultation and kind of mentor relationship can be super, super useful, because you're not asking them to do the labour. But you're asking them to make sure that you're doing it well, and learning how to do it better for the future. And then you can embed that skill by doing it yourself. Absolutely. Yeah,
Patrick Hayes 1:06:06
I think I've in many of my years of work, I've been in charge of mentorship programmes. And that used to be the one thing is to hammer home a start up all of them is like, sit down, talk with a mentor develop like five things that you want to take off at the end and be like, I have achieved this thing. I have learned how to do this, I have learned how to do that. Because often when you just come into a mentorship being like, I just wanna be mentored. It means it's not, there's a lot of ambiguity, people get lost a lot. And then suddenly, you end up at the end of a mentorship where people don't really feel like they've achieved anything or what they wanted to achieve. Even the mentors are like, I don't know, they turned up every so often. We talked about stuff and they left. That's it. But yeah, have those clear things kind of what you're saying is like know what you want to do or know what you are good at and what you aren't good at, and then a lot of self reflection in that. I think producers need to be very self reflective over their own skill sets and understand that. Yeah. That's kind of the end of the conversation. Charley, thank you so much for taking your time to taking the time to talk to me and have this little conversation around. It's been so lovely.
Charley Sanders 1:07:15
Absolutely, that it was a joy.
Patrick Hayes 1:07:17
Listeners, we'll have some links from Charley just in the show notes and everything like that. So there's a plethora of things that I know Charley's working on in the future, as well as coming up very soon. So hopefully we'll be able to link to all those. Thank you so much for listening, and we'll catch you next time on producing conversation.
Laura Milke Garner 1:07:33
Hey, thanks for listening to the podcast MILKE is your go to for getting your show to the stage. We run industry leading courses, workshops for independent artists and producers covering everything you want to know about producing your show. Want to find out more, head to our website milky.com.au That's Milke.com.au
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
