Laura Milke Garner 0:00
You're listening to a MILKE podcast, we acknowledge the traditional owners of the land of which we operate the Wurundjeri people of the Kulin nation. And with respect to where our collaborators guests and listeners are. We extend our acknowledgement to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander elders past and present.
Patrick Hayes 0:19
Hello, my name is Patrick Hayes, and this is producers in conversation. This podcast is all about a space for producers to discuss share triumphs, experiences and difficulties as we explore the ever elusive question what is a producer? Anyway? I've been in this industry for about 10 years now and I'm still not sure I know the answer. Today, I am joined by Katie Rowe, an independent producer within the first few years of her practice today we discuss her university education looking at some of the first programmes that she's worked on. And also her first trip to Edinburgh Fringe and how that is going in the current climate. Katie, would you like to introduce yourself to our listeners?
Katie Rowe 1:01
So my name is Katie Rowe. And my pronouns are she her name add producer and filmmaker based here in Naarm, who has also lost his voice and doesn't usually sound like this.
Patrick Hayes 1:14
That's okay, we will work through it. We will get there who knows my voice is probably changed a lot over every episode because I get like a new mic or a new position or all those things so great, Katie. Well, I guess, as as we've kind of got the rhythm of the questions that we kind of go around. The first question we'd like to ask is, What is your definition of a producer as you define yourself as one,
Katie Rowe 1:38
I'm definitely still on a journey when I'm discovering what it really is. But to me, a producer is someone who is an enabler and facilitator for an artist to do their best work, essentially. And I think it's taking away that administrative burden in quotation marks from an artist so that they can feel like they can fully realise their own work and focused on the art the craft the story, whatever it is, I think a producer is someone who just champions the artist, entirety of their artistic journey, I suppose. Yeah,
Patrick Hayes 2:17
yeah. Great. No, I think that's a very stable, kind of look at what a producer is. And that kind of standpoint, specifically. So like I this might be, it's like a slide question, are you mainly like a, like a creative producer, working with artists in that sense, or,
Katie Rowe 2:32
I mean, I'm still definitely an emerging emerging artist, then they're new to this, and I only graduated from the VCA, I think, was two or three years ago, I think all of us say this, but I really do fall into the but a part of you know, training as a theatre maker and actor means having that sort of natural empathy to the vulnerability of performing, which has always meant that I've been a deeply collaborative, personable sort of creative producer, and try and involve myself as much in the process as possible. And, you know, chiming in on things that, that maybe other producers may not, but then again, it also vary so much from project to project. I think lately with Melbourne Fringe happening, a lot of people asking me, like, I'm so confused about producing, what is it entail? They always go? For me, it's been really different from project to project. It's always been about what is that project need? Does it need me to not be so much a creative producer, but focus more on marketing? Or is it just artists support? Or is it more of a technical sort of aspect to it? So it's so it's so different? And I think that's also part of why
Patrick Hayes 3:37
Yeah, we just wanted like, I guess, it's one of the reasons why this podcast kind of exists is that it is such a fluid, we have to adapt to fit the cracks that exist in the project, and then kind of go from there. But it's, it's such a Yeah, and it's one of those weird things where I think like, every time I've asked that question, it's like, there are definitions of a producer. But it's always this kind of loose, ambiguous term of what a producer is, because we don't have this like, oh, it's not just as simple as a producer looks after a budget. It's not as simple as saying that it's, as you said, like champion championing, like supporting, adapting, looking after stuff for the artists to free them up and all that space. Yeah, well, I guess so. You mentioned that you fell into becoming a producer. So why why did you become a producer?
Katie Rowe 4:28
It's sort of an actually, quite rarely I think other producers, it actually started really specific point. And I really kind of remember the memory, sort of all the time I fell into it. It was my second year of VCA and our lectures on the first day of our second year were like, on these dates in August, we're going to hand over the building to the whole entire VCA community, the staff, were going to take a step back, we don't care what you do, but something will happen. And for months and months, it left sort of like untouched No one spoke about it. And I think By April or May, I was like, I reached out to that staff member, I said, Anything happened with this and she was like, No, someone needs to take hold of it. And I did and created this festival called discord 879. Because the VCA building is situated at 879 Dodge Street. And we had a week long festival that showcased over like 40 new works from about 150 students from across VCA. And it was so exciting because being there being an institution like VCA can feel sometimes, I mean, I had an amazing time, it can feel quite constricting. So to enable, you know, all of these students to have a week where they could sort of just let loose and do whatever they wanted, was incredible. And some of the works that were debuted at discord have ended up, like, you know, being creative developments for works who have had, you know, future lives. I remember also there was one show that then someone from Melbourne Fringe came and then they put them at a spot at Club fringe that same like day. And it was just crazy. And it absolutely took off. And then it was going to be sort of a big thing. And there's a real legacy of our Discord. And then of course, we had global pandemic, which we just won't to talk about. So it's, it's quite, it's really devastating. But it's also a really special experience because it sort of this one off event. And then after that I kept sort of doing my theatre making training. But this I just fell in love with producing and sort of being the leader on that. And the sort of legacy that led that festival there for that school. I was like this is incredibly empowering. And I feel like other people are also empowered by it. And I just was like, oh, maybe I'll just do producing. So yeah,
Patrick Hayes 6:39
Yeah, I think that's a, I think that kind of experience is a very similar experience for a lot of producers, where they kind of just find themselves in that space. I think I was weirdly listening to musical theatre tracks on the weekend. And I was listening to Sister Act, which I also must have been I don't, I won't say con like, this might be controversial. I didn't really like the musical itself. But I was like, I feel like I should listen to this. And there was like a whole song about the calling to the church. And I had this moment of kind of going, I feel like producers exist in this potentially same space where some people just like they find themselves at a doorstep. And that's they're part of the church kind of like situation. Some people have this, like they see the need, and then they walk towards it and do it and all that stuff. So yeah, I think it's a really, it's a really interesting, I'm sure someone a lot smarter than me could probably do some sort of research into that on the producer origins but with that whole event of discord, which once again is like I used to work with a student Theatre Company and through festival was strange did ages ago. And I know how important it is to have those senses of play that are outside of academic constraints. Because yeah, you're right, like academic systems. And I'm sure VCA is no different. They have very, there's like there is room to play. But it is like room to play in this very detailed box that has been outlined by the university, very strict guidelines put in place. So it's really great to give that growth. The next question is what is the moment you felt like a producer was there a pin drop moment you suddenly realised you were producing in that moment,
Katie Rowe 8:18
I think I remember there was so much lead up work that happens that festival, and it all the work felt kind of so intangible, and like I feel like a lot of time, we might producing. It's so much like admin that you feel like it's just like you can't measure your work, it doesn't feel real. I always think I've always felt like a producer, once the show or the event is up. And I remember like VCA has like this massive staircase in the middle of it that like winds up. But I remember for some reason I had to get from the top of the stairs to the bottom for something. And I remember like sprinting down the staircase on the first day of the festival. And everyone was watching me like run down. And they were like, there she goes. And I was like, This is what it is. It's about hustling, like getting from point A to point B to make sure that an artist is okay. Or like addressing the sort of need or whatever it is. It's always that like when you're on the ground on your feet. I think it's the same with any show. It's like, once you get in the space, once you're there with all the tech, whatever it is, that's always where I feel like it's tangible. And then it's real. And it's happening. I mean, but also, I think I've always felt like a producer when other people like call me a producer and I feel like people told me I was one before even I got to say people like Oh, Katie is a producer, you should get her to produce your stuff. And I was like, oh, okay, I'm a producer now. Okay, like sort of people put that title on you and then you just sort of run with it, I suppose. Yeah.
Patrick Hayes 9:50
Yeah. Yeah, yep. I had a very, very similar way into the field myself. Yeah. So really interesting. Yeah, it's come a few times in the Conversations is kind of, I think it's one of those things that it's very reliant on other people's perception of you to kind of really understand it and see it. And that's probably because that's what the role is it exists for other people, like producers do not exist in isolation, you don't have a producer without an artwork, you don't have a producer with that artist or an audience or all those elements. So it is really interesting. That is always the only everyone it's been someone who's had to pull them aside and tell them that they're a producer, basically, that's kind of most of the time when people which is also just I think, like, I'm not sure how it went and VCA, which is I might actually a good question like within the theatre making courses where there are a lot of talk around producers or what producers do or what they exist.
Katie Rowe 10:46
No, not really. And I think that was also the pool towards it was the curiosity about it, and sort of hearing about it a lot, but not really knowing what it sort of entailed. And the theatre making cause as I said, I had an amazing time at VCA. It was more about performance making, like training. So actor training, body voice, a bit of directing, writing dramaturg stuff, but it's funny, like to make theatre, you need a producer, or you need to produce and it was, I really do love VCA. But it was the one skill I felt like that, that it didn't really teach. I think we did like a couple, maybe like one budgeting class, but it was sort of really interesting. A lot of people were sort of left VCA. And I mean, we also were studying throughout our third year was that year that COVID happened. So we were online. So it was difficult, but a lot of people actually left being like, I actually don't know how to put on a show. And a lot of us have just put it on through learning and just doing it. And when people say Oh, should I go study producing or should I go do this my advice, which is like, like, just go do it. Go to second with someone, go be someone's assistant or something and learn by doing particularly with producing, you want to bean actor Formal training is like important with producing. Just go do something and learn by failure. Learn by Doing it, I think yeah.
Patrick Hayes 12:17
Yeah, I think I have given similar advice. Like I haven't done that. I know there is a Masters of Arts Management at RMIT, which I have not done I moved down from Brisbane to from QUT but yeah, my arts administration arts management course really is what it was called was, I would say, probably a waste of time, where I did a full year of stuff. And I it was just similar things like how to write an email, how to do a PowerPoint like it was just very things and I just feel like maybe one day there will be an amazing producer course which is great with like milky where we work and who's putting on this podcast does a lot of like boot camps, classes in those ways where it's a slightly more straightforward approach to talking around it rather than like a curriculum, I guess. But it's just really interesting that I've never seen like a university that suddenly has like renowned for outputting producers, or in that sense, I think it's just because it it does, as we're talking about today, it falls in between that artistic and business. So it doesn't I don't think anyone knows who to lead that conversation, whether it's business, or Yeah, so it must be really, yeah, well, it's good. I do not think VCA is alone in that. So it's definitely not a slight against VCA at all. And I did a similar thing where I did a drama degree, which is a lot of theatre making, but it was more focused on curriculum to become a drama teacher. But still, like when it was like putting on a show, it was always the creative aspect of putting on a show it was like, this is where you come up with the idea. And then you play and then you do this, but no one ever said. Finding a rehearsal space booking a rehearsal space, contracting people contract law, like all these different steps in the process.
Katie Rowe 14:02
Which is funny, when you're at VCA, though, like VCA, the institution or the people who work in admin there. They are technically, the producers, because they're the ones that they set up all the ticketing links, and they have the conversations with Melbourne Fringe when you you do like a show with Melbourne Fringe. Like all of that work is done for you by the school. And at the time, we were like so grateful because we were like, oh, cool, like, they just do that work for us. But it's actually like, I realised I was like, oh, there's people who are producing this for us, who are downstairs in some office somewhere like the CIA in a way where the producers of our work, which is it's just interesting that, you know, I wonder if there's some sort of way in which that will open up in a few years. And I think people are realising that, you know, producing is a really important skill and we need more producers. So who knows what will happen and if that could open up in some capacity or something.
Patrick Hayes 14:56
Yeah, yeah. It'll be interesting to see what it looks like in the next few years. I think for sure, especially since there's been a bit of exodus from the producing field to other industries, mainly because weirdly, because we're this weird in between this, but also, I think producers have a lot of transferable skills, because there's always need for problem solvers in any industry, really. And that's kind of what we do, in essence is a problem solver. But yeah, it's very interesting. And so like, looking around producing, what do you think are the core skills that a producer needs?
Katie Rowe 15:32
I think that a producer needs to be personable, and have excellent people skills. And I think when I say that to people, sometimes they're like, Oh, well, that's easy for you, because you're really extroverted and loud. And I've always gone it's a, that's totally different, like, find some amazing producers who would have a far more quiet or shy, but it's still amazing, People persons in the way that they can read a room. And I've had so many moments in processes where it's been make or break if you read the room incorrectly. And it's always about having that awareness of what is my artists need right now? Do they need space? Do they need support? Do they need me to not come to the show tonight? Do they need me to come to the show tonight? Do they need me to sit up the back and listen to their voice if they're projecting? Like, I think a really good emotional awareness and intelligence is important. I also do think you need to be a pretty excellent organisation skills, especially if you're juggling a lot of projects at once, it can get overwhelming and confusing. So I think you have to really, you know, love that attention to detail that like deep organisational sort of level of sort of thinking and structuring your time and scheduling and Google's spreadsheet eating and everything, you kind of have to love it. Otherwise, you'll just go crazy, you kind of have to enjoy the organisation organisational aspect to it, I also think you do have to see a lot of work and see a lot of theatre and you have to really love and champion the industry and other producers, I think of ourselves as a bit of a ecosystem, and particularly with fringe right now. And I have shown it I see how important is to support other artists, I think it is an ecosystem in which we just keep enriching each other. So I think you kind of have to be supportive of your peers, your colleagues, your own community places. So yeah, I think a deep love for theatre, or whatever you're producing cabaret comedy, or whatever it is, you have to really love it and appreciate it and expose yourself to different art forms. So
Patrick Hayes 17:47
yeah, absolutely. I think it is yes, it's definitely a job that I think is similar to like what people say about teachers, I think it's a very hard job to do if you are not passionate about doing it. I'm not saying you can't do it if you're not passionate about doing it. But I just think it would be a lot more difficult to tackle some of those conversations, events, all of those points. But
Unknown Speaker 18:09
yeah, I mean, I'm in the one project I'm working in the moment is like a prophet's that model and you know, so we're not getting paid a whole lot, I think about that a lot. It's like, you must really have to love it to work on something for not a lot of sort of, you know, financial security. And there's been projects I've done that have been bigger, and there's been money and whatnot. But there's sort of smaller indie projects that you just love, because the content is so good, or the people are amazing, or whatever it is, you really have to love it. If you're gonna work really hard at it like you just how could you work away at something without loving something? Yeah.
Patrick Hayes 18:48
Yeah, absolutely. So I guess like in all of those skills, and all of those things that you're thinking about in like, what it is to be a producer, what is one thing that you struggle with? And how do you tackle that? Like, how do you deal with that fact that you might struggle with that skill?
Katie Rowe 19:04
Oh, my gosh, that's such a good question. I think I'm just thinking of a particular example right now from something I'm working on. And there's a team of 14 of us, which to me for an indie project is quite big. And I think sometimes I found it overwhelming to make sure that everyone on the team, whether that's the cost, or the production team, feels like they are heard, and they're getting sort of there's a quality or a sense that I'm listening to everyone equally. And I also think it can get complicated sometimes when you're working with friends, like close friends, and this has happened on this project. And I'm sure maybe you've been in similar situations when you're actually working with an environment where these are people that you really love and you really care about them on a personal level as well as a professional one. So I think I've always just found it really interesting because there is a level of artists care and artist support that the producer has to the artist, but I guess also removing the sort of Personal relationships that you have, with close friends or people that you've worked with for a long time can be really, really interesting. I've had moments with people where there's been small moments where in small tiffs or small, small arguments, which are all healthy, but it's important to sort of separate yourself from the work and realise, like the relationship you have with someone who's a colleague and their relationship as a friend and their different things. I guess that's also, you know, working within VCA as well, as you're working with people that you really love and know, you know, their families, they know yours know, each other's lives, like inside and out. And it's just sort of, yeah, how do you keep it professional, but also personable? And how do you make everyone in the team, even the people that you're not super close with feel equally as heard or give them the same amount of attention? Thing is saying? That's just like, that's on my mind right now?
Patrick Hayes 20:48
Yeah, no, I think it's something that a lot of emerging producers specifically similar to like, it depends on your experience, like I went much more into festivals straightaway. So I wasn't working in like that kind of, I never had a collective or I never had a group of students with me on that level. I actually, out of my whole degree, I think I'm one of two people who are still working in the arts. So it's was just a very different layer, but also that that degree was focusing more on drama teaching than anything else. So I know, there's a lot of drama teachers who came out of it, and they're all amazing, send your students to their schools. But it's just really, it was really interesting, because like, when I've been in, a quickly went into like a more, like, I guess, in a quotes professional avenue, where I was a few steps ahead and years of the career path that I've chosen. But I was also still kind of figuring things out. And I was talking to people who were taking on the similar kind of projects that you were talking around now, where is that, like, you know, some friends or students that have come together to create something and then progress with it. And it does get incredibly difficult really quickly. Like, I think I, one of the examples that I had from way back when was like this, there was a group of friends, they were like, the cool kids in the university, a bit a bit clicky, but we'll forgive them that was like 10 years ago, but they did like a final project. And it was great and amazing. And everyone like went bananas over this piece that they'd made. And then some of them wanted to go and redo it somewhere else. And then a couple of people didn't, but they also didn't want the work to be like happen, because they were part of the creative process and all of that. And then I suddenly saw these group of friends very quickly, not be friends anymore, who really dissented really quickly. So I think I have no easy answers. Yeah, I think communication, expectation, all of those things is just constant, like communicate as quickly as openly as you can. And the expectations of going this is friend time. But there's also this as the work time that I have you and you know, between rehearsal hours, I expect you to do the job that you were assigned to do, you are in that role, you want to do that job, if you don't want to do that role, you need to communicate to me so we could find someone else to do that for you. But like, it's really, it's a hard, it's hard. And especially because as a producer, you kind of become the stereotypical parent of that process where suddenly you have to dispute not even just your own issues. In that moment, you have to often be HR for the two actors who were fighting each other or having issues and you have to come in as the once again, in quotes impartial person in that process, which is a bit frustrating when you're in like that collective mode, because you might also be a creative in that space and have your own opinions. But yeah, yeah, it's a difficult I have empathy. I don't know if I have any easy answers for you.
Katie Rowe 23:55
No, totally. And I think it's also saying about setting up boundaries of communication. And for me, it's always been like, if it's about the show, or if it's about the work, keep it over email correspondence. If it's about your personal life, yes, shoot me a Facebook message. Or if it's, you know, if it's an urgent show related thing, text me, but it's also, you know, what boundaries can you set up to protect yourself and protect the people that you're working with, as well. And, for me, I've always preferred email correspondence with colleagues and things like that, because it just keeps it formal, and in writing, to do that with a couple of friends to just be like, Hey, we take this over here, just so we can track it and all of that sort of stuff. I mean, yeah, I love working with people that I've known for a long time, because also you do build that vocab, and that understanding of each other of how you work. And that's, you know, that can be, you know, quite rare. And I mean, I've just come back from overseas where I was working with an entirely new bunch of people and it's sort of like rewiring your brain to be like, Oh, this is the mode we're going into now. This is how these people work. It's different to how I do it, but you know, a lot I love how this person works. But it's always sort of constantly shifting gears of how do I operate in this space and sort of where do I sit? So yeah,
Patrick Hayes 25:09
absolutely. I think you touched on something there that I think was like a really was the advice that I've given to a lot of people is writing, there's a great deal. And people, when people say have it in writing, I think everyone jumps to like major league contracts or anything like that. But I think even in those spaces, if you're having a brief conversation over the phone just being like, Yep, cool. You know, you're doing this, I'm doing this great, great, blah, blah, blah. Then you just send like a text message being like, hey, just, I just want this in very clarity going, here. Are the tasks you're doing here are the tasks I'm doing. And then that gives like a full chance for someone to review it go, nope, I misunderstood that. It's incorrect. Yeah, I think that would honestly save a lot of projects in many different ways. It's just having full on. Yeah, transparency. But as you said, you have to adapt to new people, I guess, like the next question you might want to talk about in your most recent experience being overseas as well. So we're currently recording in the first two weeks ish of October. I just say that because this is the worlds where things change month by month. And I like to indicate where we are in the timeline of once in a lifetime event, which there seems to have been like seven of them in the last 12 months. But here we are, how are you dealing with the current climate? Like how is it like so you just said were you over in Edinburgh Fringe was it.
Katie Rowe 26:38
I was one of those many people in Edinburgh Fringe and also in London, at the Soho theatre for about two weeks, mainly as in Edinburgh for a month with Peita Farrell and her team. So Reuben K, and Tina doll twist and Aboriginal comedy, all stars. We had five shows across the festival. And it was the craziest thing I've done. And you can hear it in my voice. This is how I lost it was in Edinburgh, but it was pretty crazy. And I also think being in a different country was just, it just felt absolutely insane. Like I was like, this is just and also Edinburgh Fringe is just the craziest thing ever. And everyone was like How was that and every time someone asked, I just like blank, because I don't even know how to just the craziness. I'm like, you just have to experience and someone else who they described, like, it's like New Year's Eve every night for like 30 nights in a row. But it was also so exciting. And I hadn't felt that like activated as a producer. Like, it was actually like such a invigorating experience to like, be in a different country surrounded by almost every artist ever who like flooded there. And there was so many Australians there. And it was just incredible. I think like, just made me sort of fall in love with producing more because it's so like, as I said, it's so on the ground, you're running around all the time, constantly problem solving. And I was really sad when I had to come home. But I was also really excited because I remember I said to my Melbourne Fringe show the company Slutnik. I was like I'm so excited to come home and implement everything I've learned over here into Melbourne Fringe. And it was always emotional coming home to the first rehearsal because I just felt like there was this new kind of producer, I just learned so much from being overseas in this different climate in this different environment where it's so different to Melbourne Fringe. It was so exciting to come home and be like I have all these new skills and I just want to share them with you. Yeah, I don't know if that answered your question. I think I just went on a rant about Edinburgh.
Patrick Hayes 28:47
I mean, I think it's I think that's a great thing to do for one. But it's like also good to know, like with Melbourne Fringe in but like I guess with the current climate, what are the, I guess what the question is like, what are the difficulties or challenges that you're facing right now as a producer in the current landscape of like, post COVID? Also, you know, even other stuff like art, like for instance, I'm having difficulties right now, because plane flights are getting really expensive, like that's really impacted a lot of budgets for when I've been looking at touring, like what are the things that are current for you?
Katie Rowe 29:21
I definitely think making a tour already show is really difficult. And anytime that I've been on tour, it's always been with an organisation or someone who's above me, and I'm currently in the process of making a show that will be I'll be the main producer who's in charge of the actual touring of it and won't be like through an organisation and it is really hard to budget for it. And it's really hard to know it's sort of like the chicken before the egg thing like you get a grant for you know, taking a show somewhere. But then you haven't got your venue yet because perhaps the venue's taking more time to process applications. So you can't really book your flights yet but you want to book them as soon as you can. So it's cheaper but You don't know when you're going yet. So it's this really sort of difficult sort of process of what order do I sort of do things in when I don't have all the information that I need? And also, I think just financially, it's stressful with COVID. I mean, well, it's really interesting right now. And like three days, I'm pretty sure that anyone can perform with COVID. I think from the 14th. They're saying they're scrapping it. Just, it's really complicated. And I still don't even know if I've ever opinion on it myself. But, I mean, right now, if one of my artists got COVID, tonight, we would have to cancel the show. And that's, you know, 70 Tickets worth or something. I checked the ticketing sales before so that's, you know, X amount of money, which is a certain line or fee in the budget. So it it's really scary. And I think there's a heightened sense of anxiety around, you know, budgeting and it really sort of does fall on the producer burden, and it's a scary space to sort of exist in to, you know, have to cancel shows, or whatever it is, and it's also changing the game in terms of understudies and swings in the role of independent theatre. We've never really done this before. And we haven't done this for this season of Slutnik, but in the first season it theatre works, which I wasn't attached to at the time, they bought on a swing and paid them which is like, an unheard sort of thing and independent theatre. It's such a mainstage or like commercial musical thing of having swings and standbys and understudies. And I think it's kind of going to be really interesting, as producers of like, can we afford to bring on someone to observe in the room and then push them on stage one night on a push, but be like, Okay, go on and do it. And I'm really interesting, really interested. Sorry, and to see how that changes fit independent, you know, where usually don't even have the funds really, to pay everyone. So how do we accommodate? Yeah, artists who are on standby, and I'm very curious to see how that happens. But I mean, going back to Edinburgh, you did get COVID. And you could perform and it felt wrong, but it was just like, okay, that's what they're this. This city is doing. Melbourne's not and now Melbourne is so it's really, it's really, really interesting. And I'm very curious to see how it pans out.
Patrick Hayes 32:16
Yeah, totally. Like, I think it's one of those really interesting conversations at the moment, because I guess the COVID although there's still the occasional really bad case, I think it is now after two, three years, many vaccinations later, it is getting towards that kind of flu, like vibe knocks you down for like a day or two. And then people seem to be kind of getting back on their feet. I'm not saying that's everyone. So please do not send an angry messages if you are not one of those people. But as someone who had, like I had COVID, that four months ago, and it took me out for about like four or five days. And then I was kind of fine to go and I still had to quarantine for a week. That was the time that it reduced to like one week of quarantine, and then you could figure out life. But yeah, it's a really interesting shift. But like, it's, it's like we say these things of like, oh gosh, how do we deal with it. But also, I've always had this interesting moment of going, people get sick all the time. Like, it's something that just happens. It's like food poisoning or having a flu. But also there's this weird thing where I think in the arts, performers have been pushing themselves as like a, this is my acceptable level of performing with injury, illness, whatever. And then suddenly, the next level is, you know, broken ribs, broken foot, like I can't do it anymore, blah. So it's really interesting. I think it's just that ambiguity of where this falls and what it is because like, even though legally, you could still perform with COVID If it's hitting that person extremely hard, and they can't perform anyway, just because they're coughing up, you know, stuff or lost their voice due to COVID or anything like that. It's it's a really interesting. Yeah, I'm interested to see how the next few weeks or so go with it. But it's great to hear that your Melbourne Fringe show is selling well, that sounds like a good box office like I've had, that has been a bit of a slog for some different producers around to get ticket sales moving. So it's good to hear that you've got that
Katie Rowe 34:13
it's nice. I mean, it's I do have to give a shout out to Flick who is the playwright on Slotnick, but also runs a lot of the marketing and has done like one of the best jobs I've seen someone do in terms of like, daily content, like constantly creating digital content, and like creating this marketing campaign for Slutnik in which you kind of couldn't ignore it. It was actually amazing. And I'm really proud and impressed by them. Because we're also in a big venue. It we're in Solidarity Hall, which is one of the hubs kind of bigger than us, and we were always a bit anxious about the venue capacity and the time slot. Again, this is the things that you're always thinking about because when we found out we got the festival hub everyone's like, this is amazing within me, I'm like, No, it's the late time slot people don't want to come it's in a really big venue how you and sell tickets. And we've had an amazing run so far, I think because it's been a really good marketing marketing campaign. But also having a bigger team six, which is also rare for a fringe to be a cast of six. And it's not just like an improv group or comedy, like it's a play with a full on just set design, and costumes and lights and amazing sound design. So I think we were really ambitious. And it's, there's, I mean, we haven't finished the season yet, but we've had a really good time. So far. But also going back to what you said before, I think is interesting. I think COVID I hope one small silver lining is that I think there's a really big overwork culture in the arts, and we find it really hard to switch off. And I do think that this has been one of the first times where we're taking sickness kind of more seriously. And because people couldn't come into rehearsal rooms because they were sick or something. It actually forces people to stop, because they had to. And I think a lot of the time I remember of VCA like, we were sick constantly, there was like one week where everyone had tonsillitis. And we like all came in and we're like, you know, in these like really like intimate spaces. And everyone's like sick with runny noses. And it was just like, No one cared. And now it's so different. And a part of me kind of thinks it's okay. I think it's forcing people to stop working when you're sick.
Patrick Hayes 36:25
Yeah, absolutely. Well, we think that's it. Like if you're sick, you shouldn't work. That's really just the that's the sentence. That's the message. Well, looking at, like, You've mentioned a couple of aspects of this as we've been talking, but the next question is around funding your project. So you've kind of existed in profit share, which I'm assuming is a lot more focusing on income from box office. But you also mentioned grants so like, what is what is the average way that you fund your projects?
Katie Rowe 36:52
Again, I've had people ask me this a lot lately. And again, it's so different with Slotnick, because we knew we were really wanting to do something a bit more ambitious, we applied for so many grants. And a lot of them we actually got rejected on which is a part of the process. But I mean, one of the beauties of existing within a university space, which is where the director and the writer, there's their masters students, they were able to get a couple of smaller, like micro grants from the uni, which just sort of helped tide us over and cashflow some of those bigger purchases that we made about like the set and some sound higher stuff. But it's really relying on box office, which is why it's sort of stressful, and I'm constantly monitoring ticket sales, because wanting to see how we're tracking. I also received from the VCA, like a alumni sort of scholarship for an emerging artist, and we put some of that towards it. And then there's been other times working on a creative development, the moment some people and we just got found out the other day, they we got accepted into this residency programme. So it's a lot of grant applications, it's a lot of rejection. But it's also you know, I've done a bit of work with Performing Lines this year, and did a show with Rising and that was like the first time where, you know, it's like a big for me a big a budget, and I was bought on quite last minute to the project. So all of the money and budget stuff was kind of already sorted. So it's sort of like I was coming on, and all of the funds were already there and allocated ready to go. And then it was just a matter of managing the budget, but it is really different. Every time. Yeah, so but you know, there is a lot of applying for funding, especially if it's an more ambitious work. And I know that everyone's gonna have to be paid like a really good and proper fee. But also, I think there's something amazing about independent artists and how we can put on a show from like, nothing. And I think that's why I'm so impressed by the team on Slutnick, because, you know, it's been really like micro-grants. And I think when you're working on limited resources, it forces people to be creative, like how designer has done this incredible design basically from like nothing. And it's incredible. And I think that's also an amazing part of independent theatres. People just hustling and getting it done, and using their brains in amazing ways to realise something so yeah, but it varies.
Patrick Hayes 39:09
Yeah, I mean, yeah, you kind of covered all the all the different points they're adding. That's a great kind of overview of the many different facets of getting funding in this specific stage of performance. But then also, yeah, that space of working in festivals, sometimes where they have everything, and you don't even have to worry about it, which is great. And all those points, but yeah, well, I mean, the next question is kind of talking around why like, it's the question, I guess that is, we'll ask ourselves, sometimes is Why do you think producers are important to the art sector?
Katie Rowe 39:40
I mean, I feel like the answer is so obvious, but I can't put it into words or articulate it. I just think we need especially right after COVID I think that I've noticed that artists and particularly also comedians as well feeling more vulnerable. Expect more exposure. Isn't haven't had that audience feedback that they crave and that they need, like theatre or anything could not exist without an audience. It's a shared language between the two, and you really can't have one without the other. And I think that producers are there to give artists that support, whether it's emotional, financial, whatever it is. Artists need the support, and they need someone to back them and they need to feel like someone's invested in them. Yeah, there's so much work that goes into producing for an artist, whatever kind of show it is. And I think that's why I wish I had a more grand
Patrick Hayes 40:39
No, no, I think, I think like, just like we're important to support. And there's like a lot of work that we do. And all those points, I think it's like, really just important to acknowledge and recognise, it's just sometimes it's really interesting. Like, I guess there's a lot of people who work with producers, there's a lot of people who work with no producer, there's self producing artists, there's all these different layers. So it's just good to kind of understand this ambiguous role that doesn't really get taught why we are important to the ecosystem and why it's needed. Yeah, it's just really interesting when it comes to producing what what is a moment that you are the most proud of,
Katie Rowe 41:17
I think, taking myself to Edinburgh with Pieta was a massive risk like it was I never met her team of people before. And it will happen quite quickly. And I was looking to just get out of the country and work somewhere else. And it also happened, this is just sort of that thing of trusting the timing Pieta was also looking for an assistant. So when I reached out, she was like, this is perfect timing. I need someone, I think I met her two times before we were in Scotland. And I'd never met anyone on the team. And it's a big team that went with it because we had Rueben and the band. And then we had Tina, and we had all the Aboriginal colonial stars. And I think it was a risk that paid off because I learned so much and fell in love with the team and sort of vice versa. And we all became quite close. I think that was a moment I was proud of was taking a massive risk, and really like going out on a whim and just being like, I'm going to do this. It could go terribly. And it didn't. And I think that was something I was proud of was launching myself into like an unknown space. And I'll be forever grateful that I did it and grateful to that team for taking me in and the way that they did. So yeah, I think there's when you do take a risk, there's a pride or something that comes after doing so. And I think that's definitely one of my proudest moments. We also another one was like on Friday, we opened officially opened Slotnick to our audience. And that was a very nice feeling. It was a really nice feeling. Because this is also one of the shows, again, where it's just me as the producer, it's not with an organisation, it's not with someone above me. It's really me running and steering that ship. So to have solid audiences just like it's in being able to tell your cost and your team that it's just like a dream to say we've got you know, it's the best thing in the world. Yeah,
Patrick Hayes 43:09
very good recent moments to be proud of. On the flip side of that, I think one of the one of the reasons for this podcast is kind of create a space where producers can share an experience. And that also means like, kind of sharing mistakes or things that we've learned along the way. So what was one of the mistakes that you think that you've made in relation in relation to producing
Katie Rowe 43:32
I feel like I've made so many. I've definitely stuff. We all have stuffed up budget things before that I've had pretty like, significant implications in terms of, I've done a budget really, really rushed, like super rushed. And then I realised about like, a week, sort of indeed of rehearsals or doing the show that I'm gonna come really like over budget because I didn't put anything about. And this again, is about vulnerability, but like, you know, not putting in an Auslan interpreter not budgeting for it. So getting access is sort of afterthought, which, you know, that's, I really learned through that process. Okay, I cannot do that next time. And then for this time, we prioritise that even sort of more and but even like this small thing is just like consumables, and then hire or contingency that when you're doing because usually when you're doing a budget you're using, maybe it's for an application, so you're doing them usually quite quickly. And it can be quite stressful and overwhelming. And I found that Yeah, it's really easy to forget about things because you're just not in the right headspace of production week, and actually what that entails as being a producer and how there's usually overspend and things that you need to consider. And there's been definitely a couple of times where I've gone a little bit over budget because I've just haven't figured out that I think as well just there's definitely been moments I think going back to skills that a producer needs, you know, confidentiality. And again, when you're working with friends, it's really hard to protect yourself or protect There's definitely been times where I've probably over shared information with people who really didn't need to know. And I don't mean that in like gossipy or sort of catty sense. But it is just that thing of, if someone comes to you with something that's confidential or information that's private, as a producer, it is your job to keep that information confidential and private. And there's probably been moments because, you know, you know, particularly in Edinburgh where drinking culture is, so it's so big. And as soon as you know, even with the really big alcohol culture that happens at Club fringe, it's really easy to quickly just unleash or open up about something that really you shouldn't. And I'm trying to get better and better at that. But yeah, I think they're saying about confidentiality, and not, you know, betraying people's trust as a producer. And this is why it can get complicated with friends, you know, you want it sort of tell them everything, but there comes a point where you really need to respect your, your, your team and keep things to yourself if they need to be kept to yourself. So yeah, there are a couple of things that come to mind.
Patrick Hayes 46:01
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think those are, I think we've all been in those spaces. I think we've all had the budget hiccups. I've even had the one where just like an algorithm was wrong in the budget, so it wasn't adding stuff in. And then suddenly, you know, I was looking at the bottom line, and it wasn't calculating it wasn't including all the costs, or it wasn't adding up the income correctly. Like all of those points. Yeah. Like I think the industry that we have the personal and the professional get blended a lot more than any other industry that I've encountered. And I think it's always a learning curve. I think it's always kind of adapting and getting used to things. Sometimes you'll work with friends, sometimes I've got friends that I love very dearly, but I also don't think I'd ever want to work with them. I've got people who I don't like personally, like, won't say I hate but definitely don't like but I who I'm like, very happy. I would like yeah, cool, I know that they can deliver a project really well. And they can do all that stuff. So it's really interesting that meld and because we kind of, you know, we also network, we kind of like it's all these things that kind of really transgress where we go, our work time, but then our play time is also work time. So it really blurs all of that. And I think just having Yeah, as even like your own expectations or rules and go Well, I'm not going to talk about this or this and that. And even when I've gotten to points where like, I've been pressed by friends for information that is private or even private, but just like it should be confidential to the organisation, or to the being logo. Look, I can't talk about that. Like, I just can't, this is not a thing. But I'm also someone who doesn't drink that much. So I also have the benefit of not being that person. But I have seen I used to work at APAM, which is like the big arts Performing Arts Market. And you'd be seeing these CEOs and stuff getting a bit tipsy, but also like sharing and saying stuff. And guess what, it's just one of those things, no easy answers, but a constant thing that I think is everyone is learning with.
Katie Rowe 48:00
I also just remember that when I was in Edinburgh, and I'm sorry, Pieta if you hear this, I definitely like over process comp tickets, which I have a very toxic trait of doing like just giving our comps to anyone and everyone. And then like, I've done it, even if it was Slutnik i was like, Oh, hold on, have I gone over the comp allocation? Like we actually also need to make money like and people like can I get a comp? You can get a comp and like it's really easy to say yes, especially to people who have done favours for you for a project but there also comes a point where it's like, hold on, we need to make money.
Patrick Hayes 48:31
You know, what i i secret little tidbit I've done with that is like make a 50% off promo code thing that only you have. So if you're ever in that situation where it's like not a VIP, but like, you know, a friend or something who's like, oh, like, Can I get a comp? Like, I can't give you a comp but I can give you a code that'll get you to for one. Like it's just like you kind of so at least you have at least some income coming in? Because I have also been in that situation. Yes. But it's hard sometimes to say no to people especially. Like yeah,
Katie Rowe 49:01
independent theatre, you're relying on favours from other people all the time. And with this, like, so much stuff I've worked on, it's like beg, borrow, steal, and people have given us stuff in kind. And then it's like this whole team of people that like maybe like 50 people who really gave something to the project. And then you want to give them a free ticket but it's like we also have comps for like, reviewers and media and it's like you can't comp out every single person. So yeah, it is sometimes you feel awful. I honestly,
Patrick Hayes 49:28
I honestly think a friend and help discount code is something that's worth building from the get go and you just have it up your sleeve. And then whether it's like a 30% discount, whatever you want to do it but like just something that you could be like, Look, I can't do this, but here it is. And then it's up to them. You've given them something and go here's something that I can give you a cheaper ticket. If they want to. Then they go Yeah, cool. I'll support and do this. If not, then you've gotten a free ticket that is there to for someone to buy full price rather than a comp. So it's like it's up to you. Yeah, I love that. Last kind of leading into the closing part of our interview when it kind of leads off what we just talked about in many different ways. But like, if you could go back and give yourself one piece of advice, at the start of your career, or even like, you know, start of Slutnik or heading over to Edinburgh, what is the one piece of advice that you would give yourself?
Katie Rowe 50:23
I've been thinking about this a bit lately. And I think it would be something along the lines of don't worry too much about when the next gig will be. And what I mean is like, the year that I've had this year has been like insane in terms of the producing. And I think, because a lot of producers exited the industry as a younger emerging artists, I really had to step up quite quickly, like working with rising and stuff like that was just like, I was like, I feel wildly under qualified. But I feel like I'm urging people emerging producers to sort of step really step up and meet somewhere in the middle quite quickly. And what I mean by that is like a year ago, I never would have thought that I would have had all of this work and all of these shows this year. And I remember this time last year, I was sort of sitting there and like anxiously like such with my thumb's going, I have no idea what my year looks like, next year, like it's a little bit up in the air. And there's sort of, it's sort of like, for me, I'm just trying to get more comfortable with the lack of stability, and the lack of security, and sort of embracing the chaos of it all. And everything that I've done this year has always happened quite quickly, like I've been brought on. And then the next day I start or I've been given like a month to like maybe three weeks notice that I'm going to Edinburgh, but I think it's just really trusting that you'll you'll just fall into the right project, you'll find the project or the right project will find you. And I think especially right now in October, everyone's beginning to get a bit, get a bit anxious about what's happening next year. And you know, I did, there's definitely things that I know what's going to happen, but it's also just trusting that the right things will happen, if it's meant to be and just not wasting energy or time worrying about the future too much. Because I never would have thought that I would have had the year I've had this year, this time last year. So it's just yeah, getting comfortable with how kind of like unstable it can feel, I suppose. Yeah,
Patrick Hayes 52:24
absolutely. Yeah, I think that's a great answer. Yeah, I think it's something that we all I think everyone's still like it's one of those things that is always an ongoing change and adjustment. Because like, yeah, it's it's a skill that is great to start working on a lot younger in the career, I think because it'll always you'll and you'll have fluctuations. There'll be times when you feel a lot better about it, the returns that you feel not so great about it. But yeah,
Katie Rowe 52:50
yeah, I think remembering when there's moments when you're not producing doesn't mean that you're not a producer, you can still be a producer without constantly working. And it's like you need to remember like, who you are when you're working when you're not. It's all sort of okay, I think we can feel a bit lost when we're not working. And it's like, oh my God, why am I not producing right now? And it's like, but you will soon, you know, it's okay. So yeah.
Patrick Hayes 53:15
Yeah. Awesome. Well, that kind of brings us to the end of our little conversation, Katie. So thank you so much for coming along. Listeners all get some links from Katie, if she has any to link to like following or like producing skills or even her own stuff. If you are looking for a producer and have some opportunities next year that Katie might be useful for. Feel free to like, always point Yeah, thank you so much, Kate. It's been a wonderful time having a chat with you.
Katie Rowe 53:41
Thanks so much for having me
Patrick Hayes 53:43
Listeners I'll catch you next time and this has been purchasing conversation.
Laura Milke Garner 53:47
Hey, thanks for listening to the podcast MILKE is your go to for getting your show to the stage. We run industry leading courses, workshops for independent artists and producers covering everything you want to know about producing your show. Want to find out more, head to our website milky.com.au That's Milke.com.au
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
